Oxalic Acid help with maths please?

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Poly Hive

Poly Hive

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I have a bottle of 6% commercially made OA that I want to use up but at 3.2% which is now the correct rate?

It is Italian made, 6% OA, 30% sugar and water to 1 litre.

How much water do I need to add to adjust it?

I have read through the thread with several posters who seemingly do know the answers arguing with each other to the point I cannot make out who is right or more to the point as I care not about the argument it thoroughly confuses the answer.

Simple answer please

PH
 
Poly Hive said:
I have a bottle of 6% commercially made OA that I want to use up but at 3.2% which is now the correct rate?

It is Italian made, 6% OA, 30% sugar and water to 1 litre.

How much water do I need to add to adjust it?

I have read through the thread with several posters who seemingly do know the answers arguing with each other to the point I cannot make out who is right or more to the point as I care not about the argument it thoroughly confuses the answer.

Simple answer please

PH
Click to expand...

If you add 1Lrt of 1:1 sugar watter to it, will that not make it 3% OA content? If that line of thinking is correct, just adda little less than 1Ltr.

Its looking like a good day here today, im thinking i may do my hives today.
 
Last edited:
OA shown to work best in 60% syrup (or rather at least 30%). So if i were you I'd be diluting with the thickest syrup you can muster.
 
The confusion and misinfo over OA dilutions beggars belief. There are several reasons for this...oxalic acid or oxalic acid dihydrate in the calcs, w/w or w/v, different strengths recommended etc etc. Maisemore and Paynes I believe sell 6% as opposed to the 4.5% NZ Wynne Jones offer.

6% OA in 30% syrup made up to 1 litre
Need to add 875ml liquid total
Which gives you 60g OA in a new total volume of 1875ml which is 3.2%

BUT you have diluted an already weak syrup and although there is an argument to reduce the syrup strength to just sticky to help the OA work on the mites but remove the desire to digest it (and possibly damage the "kidneys" of the bees) most recs still use 1:1 syrup.

HOWEVER, to maintain the stuff at 3.2% make up a solution of 300g sugar made up to a litre total and add 875ml of this to your original litre of OA solution. This will give you 3.2% OA in 30% syrup.

IF you decide to go back to the more "traditional" 1:1 then you need to add 850g (really 853g) of sugar and 340ml of water to the entire contents of the original 1 litre bottle . This will give you 3.2% OA in 1:1 syrup (not comparable to 30% syrup....w/w and w/v confusion again).

You MUST end up with 1875ml solution measured ideally at room temperature. How you make up the solution is up to you...I guess we'd get as much of the sugar into the 340ml as possible and then gently warm in the rest (not in an alu pan).

You can't guess this stuff as you need to use density tables BUT if it's short of 1875ml and you definitely used the right amounts then top up to 1875ml with water. No point messing with using bits of a bottle due to measuring inaccuracies and shelf-life. And if bought solution is any darker than pale yellow don't use it (HMF).

If any forumer would like to check the calcs my partner would be pleased to send them to you. Use at your own risk. We cannot be held responsible for problems arising out of the use of these figures in your OA treatments. All I do know is there is a HUGE amount of misunderstanding and error out there which we've been trying to get our heads around from first principles.

[w is weight, v is volume]
 
Last edited:
Susbees.

I have read your post about quantities of liquid to add a number of times now as i stupidly bought the paynes 6%.

I didnt get it the first couple of times due to not having a chemist brain. But having read and reread it 4times now i believe i understand it and i would really like to thank you and your other half for working that out for me.

I think i now know what i need to do to use my Paynes Oa mix. And what i have learned is next year i to will be buying the crystals. But as this is my first year i thought i would go for the easy option (how wrong was i). The good thing is that there is someone like you on here that has the brains to help us all out.

Thanks for the help. All i need now is the damn weather to get cold so i can do the Oa treatment.
 
OA solution

susbees said:
The confusion and misinfo over OA dilutions beggars belief. There are several reasons for this...oxalic acid or oxalic acid dihydrate in the calcs, w/w or w/v, different strengths recommended etc etc. Maisemore and Paynes I believe sell 6% as opposed to the 4.5% NZ Wynne Jones offer.
Click to expand...

I believe the solution sold as 6 % OA does not mean 6 g/100 ml anhydrous OA solution but rather 6 g of OA dihydrate dissolved in 100 ml syrup.

In Italy the 100:1000:1000 mix is preferred while we use the 75:1000:1000 mix.

I believe the Italian solution is the 80:400:1000 one (OA dh:sugar:water)

If we want to be clear we should not use % since it is ambiguous. Instead the g/100ml should be used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_concentration_(chemistry)#Usage_in_biology

View attachment 5566
 
I think I must have missed something??!? why not 6%?? :confused:
 
although if it gets much warmer, we could start using thymol again!
 
Poly Hive said:
Simple answer please

PH
Click to expand...

As great as it is to make from powder (7.5g OA, 100g water 100g sugar) Pete is wanting to make use of his existing purchase.

Make a sugar/ water solution of about 700g sugar to about 200ml water,, mix this with your existing pre made solution.

I say about above, as you can be as technical as you like making the solution up, but it all goes out the window when your treat.

How many of you are use A grade pipettes or buretts to precisely add 5ml per seam? NONE!!!



Edit to add- so why get your knickers in a twist!
 
Last edited:
Hi All

The advice above has been a bit variable to be honest. You are aiming for 4.5% (weight/volume, units biologists are familiar with although you can call it g/100ml if you like) of oxalic acid dihydrate in 1:1 syrup. The 1:1 syrup aspect is important for the efficacy and the health of the bees, so don't forget that.

Assuming that you have 6% in 1l of 30% syrup that is:

60g + 300g sucrose + water to 1l (which I reckon was about 790ml)

Your normal 75+1000+1000 recipe, scaled down to use just 60g oxalic acid dihydrate would be:

60 + 800g sucrose + 800ml water

Subtracting what you already have means that you need to add this:

0 oxalic + 500g sucrose + 10ml water

So that is what you need to add, half a packet of sugar and just a slurp of water, then you are at the usual strength of both oxalic and sugar.

This should give a final volume of about 1336ml.

If you are one of those who prefer a more dilute version (usually 3.5% of the dihydrate) then the 75+1000+1000 formula becomes 58+1000+1000 which is close to 60+1000+1000. So you would need to add 700g sugar and 210ml water to get there (from your 6%, 30% sugar in 1 litre).

Gavin
 
PH, i bought some 6% from mas/more in november, then i seen the answers on here about it, i phoned them up to ask if i need to dilute what they had sold me, their answer was, that it is ready to use you dont have to do anything to it, just use from container,
 
gavin said:
Hi All

The advice above has been a bit variable to be honest. You are aiming for 4.5% (weight/volume, units biologists are familiar with although you can call it g/100ml if you like) of oxalic acid dihydrate in 1:1 syrup. The 1:1 syrup aspect is important for the efficacy and the health of the bees, so don't forget that.

Assuming that you have 6% in 1l of 30% syrup that is:

60g + 300g sucrose + water to 1l (which I reckon was about 790ml)

Your normal 75+1000+1000 recipe, scaled down to use just 60g oxalic acid dihydrate would be:

60 + 800g sucrose + 800ml water

Subtracting what you already have means that you need to add this:

0 oxalic + 500g sucrose + 10ml water

So that is what you need to add, half a packet of sugar and just a slurp of water, then you are at the usual strength of both oxalic and sugar.

This should give a final volume of about 1336ml.

If you are one of those who prefer a more dilute version (usually 3.5% of the dihydrate) then the 75+1000+1000 formula becomes 58+1000+1000 which is close to 60+1000+1000. So you would need to add 700g sugar and 210ml water to get there (from your 6%, 30% sugar in 1 litre).

Gavin
Click to expand...



when you have 50 hives
.
 
AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!

PH said Keep it simple. for the sake of peoples sanity can we have not so many different answers please.

this is doing mine and im sure others heads in.

Please Please can we have all the posters that have put thier formulas up come to an agreement as to which to use please.

OK I bought the wrong stuff, its all they had in the shop, im a newbee, im not a chemist, and im very confused!!!

Sorry for the rant.
 
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