Strange Brood - Drone-Laying Queen

Hello all,

The saga of my colony continues - on inspecting them yesterday, I found what appears to be evidence that the queen is laying - capped brood. I still can't see eggs... but the frames are very dark, so as there is capped brood, I'm assuming I am just being useless and blind.

Anyway - this was, as far as I can tell, a virgin queen that emerged and killed my bought-in mated queen.
She will have emerged in the last relatively cold spell we had a couple of weeks ago - so I am assuming that her first chance to get out and mate will likely have been this last week.

On inspecting them yesterday, I found this capped brood. Am I correct in assuming it is drone brood, in worker cells?
If so, does this indicate a drone-laying queen?

Or, is it possible, due to the length of time they'd been without a queen, I may have laying workers?





Thanks!

This is interesting as I have capped worker brood and intermittent capped drone brood on 'worker frames'. I just assumed a little bit of mixed in drone was normal. Are you saying that's a wrong assumption? My queen has had no issues this year and seems to be well and healthy.

All the best,
Sam

malawi2854 said:

Hello all,

The saga of my colony continues - on inspecting them yesterday, I found what appears to be evidence that the queen is laying - capped brood. I still can't see eggs... but the frames are very dark, so as there is capped brood, I'm assuming I am just being useless and blind.

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If I had brood that looked like that I would have found a way of seeing into the scary dark recesses of the combs to find out what's going on. A small maglite-type torch or same plus a magnifying glass/increased power reading glasses etc? Getting the frame with the sun/brightest bit of the sky behind you and tilting it until you can see.

That lot look doomed to me.

RoseCottage said:

...I have capped worker brood and intermittent capped drone brood on 'worker frames'. I just assumed a little bit of mixed in drone was normal. Are you saying that's a wrong assumption?

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Not at all, no - it's just given the rather unusual set of catastrophies that have set about this colony this year, and the complete lack of brood up until now, the creation of drones seems a little counter-productive - plus, the cappings look more than a little suspect to me...

susbees said:

That lot look doomed to me.

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Why do you say that?

I have the same thing with a small cast swarm, two small patches, and no worker brood and no new eggs so I strongly suspect a DLQ in my case. The colony appears to be trying to replace the queen as I found two capped QCs. I knocked those back and added a frame of viable eggs yet they still seem to be insisting on using the DLQ as a source of eggs for queens. I was advised to unite them which I will do with my main colony once the wind drops and it isn't raining. I suspect that's why susbees says they are doomed.

malawi2854 said:

Not at all, no - it's just given the rather unusual set of catastrophies that have set about this colony this year, and the complete lack of brood up until now, the creation of drones seems a little counter-productive - plus, the cappings look more than a little suspect to me...

Why do you say that?

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Because you have two scenarios: DLQ not mated due to weather or if not LW. Neither can sustain a colony...merely supplying drones to theoretically mate queens elsewhere. If the first unite or requeen. If the latter more complex and less likely. So are there eggs in the frame or not? And if so where in the cells and how many?

IMHO I wouldn't wait too long to requeen the colony with good stock soon,rather than risk the colony to fail because of a poor queen.

The longer the saga goes on, the more likely the doomsday approaches.

Stop messing about. Determine if queenright. If there is only intermittent brood after at least a week of laying, any queen there is a waste of space; or it may be laying workers. If Q+ remove and requeen; if Q- requeen. Simple.

The complicated (or perhaps more difficult) bit is to get the new queen accepted.

At some point you need to take positive action to restore the colony to normal or unite it. Seems to me to be that time is well due if not overdue.

RAB

Hello Malawi - I know the feeling - problems here too.

I posted this link a week ago - it may help
If you cannot connect with the link below - search key words
www.beehacker.com drone egg laying workers

http://www.beehacker.com/wp/wp-conte...orker_bees.pdf

oliver90owner said:

Stop messing about. Determine if queenright. If there is only intermittent brood after at least a week of laying, any queen there is a waste of space; or it may be laying workers. If Q+ remove and requeen; if Q- requeen. Simple.

The complicated (or perhaps more difficult) bit is to get the new queen accepted.

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OK - cards on the table then - basic question time.

How do I find out if the colony is queenright? I know they have a queen - I can see her. Whether or not she is laying decent eggs is up for debate - how do I test this? Leave until next weekend, and see how the brood pattern develops?

Can you clarify what Q+ and Q- mean? If Q+ is queenright, why would I want to requeen?

Difficult bit - requeening - I really don't get why this is difficult - don't get me wrong, I've tried it, and they didn't accept her - but as it turns out, it would seem that was because they already had a queen in there that I missed.
SO - now I have her marked - if I squash her, remove queen cells later - and then provide a mated queen, why on Earth would they reject her?

I have a swarm I collected a few weeks ago, which was a cast - it is VERY small - but the queen has just come into lay - need to wait for it to be capped, but they are looking OK at the moment. They are in a 5-frame nuc box, and only cover 1 frame - but they are getting there.

I could try uniting them maybe?


Sorry - I was beginning to feel rather good about this beekeeping lark until this started happening, and now I feel like everything I do is wrong!

malawi2854 said:

and see how the brood pattern develops?

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If the brood pattern is anything like mine, I had capped brood like yours but no new eggs. This to me suggests that either she is unfit, or the workers have stopped her laying (except in the queen cup)

malawi2854 said:

Can you clarify what Q+ and Q- mean? If Q+ is queenright, why would I want to requeen?

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I always took Q+ to mean queen present, not necessarily queenright. I always took queenright to mean no obvious problems with queen and brood laying.

malawi2854 said:

now I feel like everything I do is wrong!

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I know the feeling

malawi2854 said:

OK - cards on the table then - basic question time.

How do I find out if the colony is queenright? I know they have a queen - I can see her. Whether or not she is laying decent eggs is up for debate - how do I test this? Leave until next weekend, and see how the brood pattern develops?

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When a queen comes into lay she lays worker brood (if properly mated). She may mess up and lay two eggs in some cells til she gets the idea but the workers sort it out. What she does NOT do is lay random drone brood in worker cells. You are far from alone with badly mated/unmated queens.

Can you clarify what Q+ and Q- mean? If Q+ is queenright, why would I want to requeen?

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Because she appears to be an unmated/very poorly mated queen laying drone brood only or mostly.

Difficult bit - requeening - I really don't get why this is difficult - don't get me wrong, I've tried it, and they didn't accept her - but as it turns out, it would seem that was because they already had a queen in there that I missed.

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Um, exactly. That is why you need to know if it's Q+ or Q-!

SO - now I have her marked - if I squash her, remove queen cells later - and then provide a mated queen, why on Earth would they reject her?

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You squash her, or better possibly put her in a matchbox in the freezer to help find future queens (not tried this but know people who have), wait no more than 24 hours and introduce queen in a cage with candy plug AND cover. Leave covered three days and check for emergency cells though the 24 hour thing ought to have prevented this. Look for how the bees are on the cage...biting, looking hyper? Leave another couple of days...check again. Only when they are totally relaxed take the cover off and let them eat her out.

IF bees are making swarm cells, if laying workers are present/queen pheromone is low and laying workers developing, if the queen is a different sort then you could have problems. Ten days tops ought to do it. And in a small colony or nuc AND with a queen who has reared her first cycle of brood to max her pheromones before introduction you stand a much better chance of success.

I have a swarm I collected a few weeks ago, which was a cast - it is VERY small - but the queen has just come into lay - need to wait for it to be capped, but they are looking OK at the moment. They are in a 5-frame nuc box, and only cover 1 frame - but they are getting there.

I could try uniting them maybe?

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In this instance I'd say no, don't put all your eggs in one basket so to speak. See how this story runs on its own for now and get a good calm queen from local stock.

Sorry - I was beginning to feel rather good about this beekeeping lark until this started happening, and now I feel like everything I do is wrong!

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Our BKA had a Q&A session instead of the apiary visit yesterday. I was coerced onto the panel. You are far from alone .

susbees - thank you very much indeed for your thorough reply - it is very much appreciated.

That all seems to make sense.

Queen is definately in the colony - I saw her on Saturday.

Can I just run through the introduction process you suggested in my own words - to make sure I understand?

• I squish/remove/freeze/whatever the existing queen
• Within 24 hours, I put a mated queen in a cage, plugged with candy, but with the cover over the fondant NOT removed, so they can't get her out.
• After 3 days, check for queen cells - remove any present
• If bees are behaving themselves with the queen in cage, then remove cover, and allow them to chew her out. Otherwise, leave another 2 days, and check again.
• Once she is released, cross fingers and hope to high-heaven that all goes well!

Is that about right?

With the 24hr period at the beginning - as the queen is marked, and quite easy to find in there, would it be worth getting a replacement mated queen, and only removing the existing queen when the replacement queen has arrived?
That way, they would only be "without queen" for a few minutes?

A new queen should be laying worker bees and not drones. That's a nice picture of drone eggs laid in brood cells. If the eggs are reaching the bottom cells then its likely a queen laying them but as you've seen the queen; Squash the queen and unite with another colony. If you had a small second frame of eggs from your other colony you could pop that in and get them to raise a queencell from it but your other colony is small and this one will have few young bees in it and two small colonies in June will take a while to build up - especially as a queen will have to be produced first (16 days for a virgin, then mate, say 2 - 4 weeks before starting to lay; bees a further 3 weeks)

. If you want to unite more slowly, you could move the drone laying colony to one side and allow the flyers to return to the small swarm to strengthen it first;

malawi2854 said:

susbees - thank you very much indeed for your thorough reply - it is very much appreciated.

That all seems to make sense.

Queen is definately in the colony - I saw her on Saturday.

Can I just run through the introduction process you suggested in my own words - to make sure I understand?

• I squish/remove/freeze/whatever the existing queen
• Within 24 hours, I put a mated queen in a cage, plugged with candy, but with the cover over the fondant NOT removed, so they can't get her out.
• After 3 days, check for queen cells - remove any present
• If bees are behaving themselves with the queen in cage, then remove cover, and allow them to chew her out. Otherwise, leave another 2 days, and check again.
• Once she is released, cross fingers and hope to high-heaven that all goes well!

Is that about right?

Click to expand...

Yes, that's about right.

With the 24hr period at the beginning - as the queen is marked, and quite easy to find in there, would it be worth getting a replacement mated queen, and only removing the existing queen when the replacement queen has arrived?
That way, they would only be "without queen" for a few minutes?

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Yes, you should obtain a replacement first. She will come with several attendants and can be kept somewhere sensibly warm...many arrive if by post in a Jiffy bag with hole-punched holes...but not in the sun. So if you collect something similar.

Next, the bees need to know they have no queen and change their temperament to feeling sad and lost . Seriously, best part of a day without a queen is best. At 24h they will start scrabbling about looking to make their own....this is impossible with yours if she is likely unmated. So wait the 24 hours then introduce. The check for QC is more a future mantra.

Good luck.

Ah, Ok.

So I need to wait precisely 24hrs between squishing old queen, and inserting caged new queen?

I thought you meant I needed to introduce the new one before the 24hrs was up.

I will likely be collecting my queen personally - I have a good supplier not too far from me - shucks - another £35 down the toilet!

I expect the unions won't mind if it's 22 or 23

Before I start can I say that its nearly impossible to appear positive in situations like this.

It's no good just looking at one frame in isolation but if that is all the brood there is then the colony is doomed. There is no point in buggering about trying to save them, in a really good year with an excess of filled frames elsewhere I'd dump in a frame of almost emerging worker brood and then a few days later a test frame of eggs but its not worth it in this case. The health and strength of remaining colonies is paramount.

Are you really SURE there is no disease?

If you are sure then I'd dump them on a sheet in front of another hive on a day with a flow and use the workers productively. Or spray them and another colony with sugar and shake them in.

Buying another queen when you appear to have "2 colonies" could be considered madness. A "colony" doesn't have a brood pattern even remotely like that

Keeping a colony from swarming is essential if this year carries on in the current manner. It might be different in other areas but emerged healthy queens , with a very large proportion of viable drones are failing to mate because of the weather or other reasons so a swarmed colony is effectively a lost colony.

But you might have a large number of virgins in the hive, or you could just have one but every time you go in it puts her off going on a mating flight

So what time of day do you inspect?

What's the local weather been like?

What's the temperament of all your colonies relative to others in the area?

Leave it long enough and you might have laying workers, but there appears to be some worker brood there, not enough to make any difference.

But the key questions are:

Is the other colony healthy?

Can you recognise healthy worker brood?

Can you recognise disease?

Can you recognise a lack of stores?

Is there adequate local sources of nectar and pollen?

Are the bees bringing in pollen?

Where is the nectar being stored?

What is the proportion of eggs, unsealed and sealed brood?

How many drone cells per frame?

What quantity of accessible stores are there on the brood frames (exclude all oil seed rape)

Do you go through a colony and wonder what the hell is happening?

Have you a number for the local bee inspector?

Are you really SURE there is no disease?
They HAD rather a nasty bout of varroa, but as I was broodless, I treated with ApiGuard for 2 weeks, finishing last week, so that should be them nuked back down to acceptable levels.
Otherwise, I can't be sure they are disease free, any more than I can be in any of my other colonies - but they are showing no signs that I can identify.

Buying another queen when you appear to have "2 colonies" could be considered madness. A "colony" doesn't have a brood pattern even remotely like that
Of this, I am abundantly aware - I am under no illusions that this colony is in a dire state - I am trying to find out what I can do to save it, or if I'm best, as you suggest, uniting it with another colony.

So what time of day do you inspect?
Usually around 3-4pm

What's the local weather been like?
Up until this last Saturday, very good, nice warm weather, a little windy at times, but generally speaking, warm, sunny. In recent days - overcast, windy and wet.

What's the temperament of all your colonies relative to others in the area?
I have no contact with other beekeepers that close to me - the nearest is a few miles away, and he has commented on how placid they seem to be - but they have been that way since I got hold of them last year.

Leave it long enough and you might have laying workers, but there appears to be some worker brood there, not enough to make any difference.
Does this indicate the queen is mated, but poorly?


Is the other colony healthy?
I have 1 other colony, which I only picked up on Friday - so no real comment on that one yet.
The other 2 colonies - one is a result of a split earlier in the year, and is queenright, and expanding, albeit rather slowly. They have a shortage of workers - which could be solved with the uniting of this colony perhaps?
One is a very small cast swarm I collected - living in a nuc box - again, queenright and recently started laying, but bees only to cover a single frame.

Can you recognise healthy worker brood?
I believe so, yes.

Can you recognise disease?
I believe so, yes.

Can you recognise a lack of stores?
Yes - I can assure you, they are not suffering from this.

Is there adequate local sources of nectar and pollen?
The other colonies appear to be bringing in plenty, as does this colony.

Are the bees bringing in pollen?
I've not seen them carrying any in - but then, they have about 3 full frames of it already in stock.

Where is the nectar being stored?
Seems to be an equal mix between the supers and the brood body

What is the proportion of eggs, unsealed and sealed brood?
In this "troubled" colony, I would say around 1:1:1 - but what you see in the picture is about all the capped brood - there is a little more on the opposite frame, but not a lot.

How many drone cells per frame?
Quite a few - as you can see in the photo.

What quantity of accessible stores are there on the brood frames (exclude all oil seed rape)
No rape, plenty to keep them going.

Do you go through a colony and wonder what the hell is happening?
Not often - I usually know what's going on - but I will freely admit this whole problem is rather confusing me.

Have you a number for the local bee inspector?
Not exactly on speed dial.




So - as usual, I am left in a position where I have 2 people (I suppose I'm lucky it's only 2 opinions!) with differing opinions.
If I'm being positive, I feel like I should give the bees a chance in this "doomed" colony, and give a new queen a go - she will be mated, so will begin laying almost immediately.

However, I have to focus on the facts, and appreciate that this debarkle has been going on for quite a number of weeks now, and it is only getting worse - I've had no new brood emerge in weeks, and so even the youngest bees must be approaching retirement by now.
So, I have to consider, would a new queen have time to lay a batch of brood, and still have any bees alive capable of rearing them? Perhaps not.

So I am now swaying toward the idea that uniting with one of the weak colonies may be a good idea - as they have laying queens, but a shortage of workers.
I have the choice of 2 small, queenright colonies to choose from - 1, which was a split from this troubled colony weeks and weeks ago - or a small cast swarm in a nuc box.

However, all these colonies are in the same apiary, and as such, how do I go about uniting them, given that the flying bees will return to the old site?

And there you have your probably answer. Apiguard and other thymol treatments will often stop any laying. An autumn treatment often reduces the number of winter bees, treatment in summer can lead to bees abandoning a hive if the temperature rises too high.

There could be nothing wrong with the bees or any queen.

What do you mean by a bad bout of varroa? How many were dropping per day and over what period did you monitor them?

Did you observe any other problems with the emerged bees you might have associated with varroa?

Broodless means only phoretic varroa as over winter and so other less intrusive options with organic acids trickled or vaporised would have worked quicker and with more efficacy.

In the brood box precisely WHERE on the frame is the nectar being stored?

Around the top edge or somewhere else?

If you take a frame in the brood box out right across the hive, what is the approximate coverage in percentage terms of adult WORKER bees on each frame?

Why do you have supers on this hive, does the density of bees justify it?

If as you say you have eggs, unsealed and sealed brood, is there any of these covering a contiguous area on a frame say 4 inches across?

From the photo there appear to be polished cells ready for the queen to lay in, is this the case across multiple frames?

When you see eggs are they centrally placed on the bottom of the cell?

Do you see only one egg per cell or many?

By saying that the other colony is in the same apiary, do you mean adjacent or many metres apart?

How frequently have you been going in the hive?