Problems with 4" roof

Hi all, just wandering if anyone else is having problems with 4" roofs? The underside depth of a 4" roof is approximately 3 1/4" due to the internal battens. I currently have a 1" eke on top of my crown board so that i can add a rolled slab of fondant. On top of the eke I have a 2" pad of insulation.
So in total I have 3" of hardware on top of my crown board, with 3 1/4" of space in the roof. The roof doesn't seem very secure to say the least, and doesn't seem very water tight.
Does everyone else running 4" roofs have the same issues, or do most people go to 6"?

Why not put an empty super on top of the crown board/fondant and cut the insulation to fit inside it - then the roof on top. A housebrick on the roof also helps!

either cut the insulation to fit inside the battens or rip them out altogether - it's totally pointless anyway.

idg said:

1" eke on top of my crown board so that i can add a rolled slab of fondant. ?

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If you've got a rolled out slab of fondant it should be placed directly on top of the frames, surrounded by an eke then covered by a crownboard - not on top of the crownboard.
and if you're worried about the security of the roof, put a strap around both hive and stand - especially in winter

i put water proof cover over my hive's aswell .stop's any side wind/rain...

...didn't notice the 'rolled slab' bit!

imho the battens should be left in the roof to ventilate the ply.

inthewoods said:

i put water proof cover over my hive's aswell .stop's any side wind/rain...

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Hive kagools hmm, that's an idea!!!! sure there'll be enough gullible people out there willing to fork out - as long as I make them in pretty colours

I could make little wellies to put the hive stand feet into too

richardbees said:

imho the battens should be left in the roof to ventilate the ply.

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Why? no need to if the insulation is fixed directly onto it. None of my hive roofs have any battens inside or vents any more - seems only to be a British phenomenon anyway

never thought of that..not pink thow

jenkinsbrynmair said:

Hive kagools hmm, that's an idea!!!! sure there'll be enough gullible people out there willing to fork out - as long as I make them in pretty colours o

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I@m pretty sure I've seen them on sale.

jenkinsbrynmair said:

If you've got a rolled out slab of fondant it should be placed directly on top of the frames, surrounded by an eke then covered by a crownboard - not on top of the crownboard.

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Thanks for the advice JBM. I realised some people placed the fondant slab directly on the frames, but is there any reason why it cannot go above the crownboard? As the slab doesn't completely cover the frames, I didn't want to add additional space around it. The slab above the crown board is wrapped in cling film apart from the area over the hole. It also means I don't need to disturb them too much to check and change the fondant.

It is obviously classed as being "outside the hive". Is that the issue with it?

As always your comments would be greatly appreciated.

idg said:

Hi all, just wandering if anyone else is having problems with 4" roofs? The underside depth of a 4" roof is approximately 3 1/4" due to the internal battens. I currently have a 1" eke on top of my crown board so that i can add a rolled slab of fondant. On top of the eke I have a 2" pad of insulation.
So in total I have 3" of hardware on top of my crown board, with 3 1/4" of space in the roof. The roof doesn't seem very secure to say the least, and doesn't seem very water tight.
Does everyone else running 4" roofs have the same issues, or do most people go to 6"?

Click to expand...

I had a 4" roof on one hive. I didn't like it and now all my hives have homemade 6" roofs, built from ply and aluminum skin. This gives room for rapid feeders in autumn or anything else required. My clear crownboards have beespace rims on one side and 20mm rims on the other. The clear plastic has a 25mm hole in the centre which is kept closed unless required for feeding.
In winter I put a sheet of insulation into the deep side of the crownboard, remove the roof and place a weatherproof hive cozy over instead. If fondant is required on the topbars of frames the crownboard can be inverted.
Works for me

As GJ, most of my roofs are deeper by quite a bit and include insulation down to the level of the roof support battens. Another 25mm of insulation and a 8-10mm crownboard leaves the hive boxes well covered.

Now, the reason for the battens. They maintain an airspace in the heat of the sun so there is a conduction barrier between roof and crownboard (and so the bees, of course). Some ventilation for the roof space is needed in the event of moisture getting in from above, or below, to prevent deterioration of the structure. Simple physics.

I always secured shallow roofs with a strap or preferably two, in order not only to keep the roof on in windy weather but also to pull the crownboard down very securely (to avoid any air leakage from above the colony - especially if the seal is broken by the beekeeper after the bees cluster - and water ingress in driving rain).

When I fed more routinely during the winter (pre changing to 14 x 12!) I always fed with fondant over the feed hole with the fondant box buried in insulation fitted inside a spare shallow box. In those cases, the straps were under the roof with the ratchets inside the roof and the straps on the outside being protected by a light-tight covering (otherwise they don't last very long!).

IMO, hives potentially benefit from no visible joints between boxes or crownboards. If there must be joints open to the elements they should be pulled tightly together. Normally, given time, the bees would prpolise any gaps, but often the joints are made too late in the year for that to be practical for them.

RAB

idg said:

ut is there any reason why it cannot go above the crownboard? As the slab doesn't completely cover the frames, I didn't want to add additional space around it. The slab above the crown board is wrapped in cling film apart from the area over the hole

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Nothing wrong with having fondant above the crown board but not rolled out into a big flat slab - the bees are going to have to spread out quite a bit to get at the fondant which isn't that ideal, and there's a good chance it's going to dry out fairly quickly - put it in a plastic takeaway contaier and put that over the feed hole - then cut a carton sized hole in a slab of 50mm kingspan - the carton will fit nicely into it - if you then have a sheet of kingspan stuck into the roof as weel - all is nicely snug.
I repeat again - if you have a slab of kingspan in direct contact with the underside of the hive roof you do not need battens, an airspace or ventilation holes keep the insulation in all year and you won't need a 'conduction barrier' for the heat of the sun either.
Funnily enough when I was in Africa they had no 'airspace' or roof vents in the wooden hives nor any insulation and it was a tad warmer there in the summer (and a lot wetter too) it was also a lot colder in the winter.

Thanks to everyone for some very sound advice.

domino said:

I@m pretty sure I've seen them on sale.

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No need to buy anything.
I have a problem with one of my MB hives. The eke underneath, making 2 shallows into a 14 x 12, is letting in water. Normally it wouldn't be a problem if it was on the floor but at the moment there is a nadired super.
I just cut a bit of old tarp, joined it together (see gaffer tape) and pinned it to the PIR insulation under the roof. All nice and snug now.

Yes, put the fondant on the topbars, then the eke, then the (no-hole) coverboard, and then the insulation inside an empty super.
A 4" roof on top should be fine.
Some bricks on top or a strap over is always a good thing.


The conveniently car backseat sized (1200x450mm) Celotex slabs from Wickes are too small to cover a 460mm square Nat (or 14x12 or commercial) without a surrounding eke or super. Which is one more reason why I use the building insulation board INSIDE some sort of surround!

as per others - rolled fondant on top bars inside a shallow eke (useful to make a solid CB with the necessary high raised rim on one side for use with fondant or apiguard). insulation on top or in roof.

deep 8" roof with heavy ply sides - example here on a poly nuc.

and all strapped down.

Independently, I made something very similar to Erica's, but mine went outside the roof/lid Like the idea of fitting permanent insulation to the inside of the roofs.

jd101k2000 said:

Like the idea of fitting permanent insulation to the inside of the roofs.

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Should have been at Ffairfach auction on Saturday - loads of 'second hand' kingspan being sold off there