Captured swarm now bearding outside new Nuc

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A swarm (regardless of size) is looking for 40 Litre ... they may put up with a nuc if there is nothing better they can find...

They aren't really as fussy as this statement might indicate.

Seeley found that swarms preferred 40 litres to the two other sizes he offered (something like 25 and 60 litres?) and the AVERAGE that he measured for feral colonies in tree cavities was something like 40 litres - but the average masked a considerable variation.

But that doesn't mean they will likely abscond from a 6-frame national nuc with an old comb (as well as foundation). Sure it might be small for a really massive prime swarm - but I've never had one abscond from a 6-frame 14x12 nuc (even before starting to use the entrance disc QX setting). Yes, I've had them immediately go back to Q on the tree (who I'd obviously failed to gather into my box first time round), but not to abscond to a better hole.
And using the QX on the entrance disc should prevent absconding - just as long as Q is inside the box! They won't abscond after comb has been drawn and Q starts laying. Note in that regard that casts may be more flighty since they won't be anchored by brood for weeks. But then, they are going to be smaller swarms ...


What Seeley's "40 litre" figure DOES mean though, is that if you want to maximise the chances of your bait hive being CHOSEN BY somebody else's swarm, then close to 40 litres (like a National brood) is going to be the most attractive size. Similarly with the entrance size, orientation, height above ground, etc ...
But there's a difference between making a bait hive the most attractive choice, and what is good enough for the bees not to bother absconding from.
 
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When I long time ago started beekeeping, I bought swarms. Swarms were weighed and sold per kilo.

I found that best start was 4 kg bees. It filled 2 langstroth boxes 80 litres). It brought 40 kg honey and draw 3 boxes foundations.

Mostly I united 2 swarms, or 3, if swarm was small.

Modern hives produce even 5 kg swarms.

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When I long time ago started beekeeping, I bought swarms. Swarms were weighed and sold per kilo.

I found that best start was 4 kg bees. It filled 2 langstroth boxes 80 litres). It brought 40 kg honey and draw 3 boxes foundations.

Mostly I united 2 swarms, or 3, if swarm was small.

Modern hives produce even 5 kg swarms.

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Just putting things in perspective: thats twice the recommended size for a package in July. No wonder it took a double-deep!
 
Just putting things in perspective: thats twice the recommended size for a package in July. No wonder it took a double-deep!

And brought 40 kg honey in one month. I got my money back at once and douple brood hive for winter. I put Caucasian queens into the swarms. They were huge layers.
 
everyone goes on about the size of hive bees are looking for, did anyone tell the bees this ????


 
Thanks Itma - please excuse the brevity of my reply in favour of readability.

1) The entrance was fully open and is quite hard to turn. I did dump most of the bees into the box late last night but by the time I checked this morning they had simply congregated outside again. So...

2) today I re-dumped as many as I could into the nuc and set the entrance to Qx, low and behold many of the bees left outside have actually gone inside now. There's probably less that 25% left bearding on the front so space again maybe?

3) Using some old comb may be a job for tomorrow, as is feeding. I need to open one of my other hives to get some though and am concerned that potentially new queens may take flight. I could take a comb of stores as well however to use instead of feeding and I'm also playing with the idea of re-uniting some of them but have to be sure I don't mix up two queens of course.

4) It was one of my hives, I watched them swarm so felt obliged to retrieve them. That ones down to experience - you get a lot of that early on in this game huh ;)

5) I'm assuming the Q is in the nuc as most of the stragglers have now entered of their own free will. Unless they have bought their way into one of either of my other hives which both had a fair bit of activity around them this afternoon. I'll need to check inside tomorrow.

6) I've moved the nuc far to a new location and will check the ground tomorrow when it's light. It wasn't on bricks though so she couldn't have been under it. Hidden/inside/demised all remain possibilities.



They haven't gone in.
It isn't that the space is too small and they are overflowing.
They never went in.


So ... why?

1/ Is the entrance disc pinned fully open?
The central screw is simply not enough to prevent the disc rotating under the weight of a beard of bees.

2/ "Walking the bees in" is for spectators benefit. Do it differently, to benefit you and the bees.
Set the entrance to the Queen Excluder setting. And pin it securely - map pin or nail, not a drawing pin.
Dump the bees inside.
Add frames gently and allow them to sink gently between the bees - don't push them down!
Fit cover and roof.
And I'd leave them like that until dark and all the scouts and stragglers have joined and gone inside.
Close and pin the entrance for the journey home.
Once home, repin it at the QX position.
Leave for a couple of days before feeding and opening the entrance properly. Again pin it so it stays where you set it.

3/ Give them an old frame, not all foundation. Bees love "second hand" not new. And your nuc is new.

4/ I'd bet that it was from one of your own hives The rest of that story might well help to explain the origin of the swarm.

5/ Swarms don't start out Queenless.
If Q ain't there, they just return to their hive. (As we know, this is the justification for Q clipping.)
They may get Q- as a result of beekeeper misadventure, but it sounds like this swarm was in or around your own apiary.
If you didn't catch Q, they'd have leapt straight back up into the tree where Q was last seen/smelled.

6/ I reckon they either cannot get in or Q is under the nuc.
I'd probably try and shake/brush them off the outside of the nuc into a cardboard box, and then tip them into the nuc (as above, then add frames).
The one thing you need to ensure is that Q is NOT left on the outside of the nuc. Check the ground beneath the nuc ...
It ain't about finding her, it is about ensuring that she ISN'T in the wrong place.
Depending on your weather, I might water mist the cluster to prevent too many flying off.
The cardboard box needs to be taped internally so that there are no 'flaps' that bees can hide under and resist being dumped into the nuc.
And I'd feed them this afternoon as it is a few days since they swarmed.
With Q inside, and the entrance pinned at QX, there would be no risk of absconding.
I'd move the nuc just far enough so it isn't covering the same patch of ground.
Then watch to see whether the flyers Nasonov at the nuc entrance or at the patch of ground next door. They'll tell you where THEY think Q is. If she's outside, repeat the exercise until successful.
 
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2) today I re-dumped as many as I could into the nuc and set the entrance to Qx, low and behold many of the bees left outside have actually gone inside now. There's probably less that 25% left bearding on the front so space again maybe?
...
5) I'm assuming the Q is in the nuc as most of the stragglers have now entered of their own free will. ...
6) I've moved the nuc far to a new location and will check the ground tomorrow when it's light. ...

Once Q is inside, the rest will follow.

Normally, the swarms I catch are a few miles from my apiary, so, when I take them 'home' they need to reorientate to the new location. (Yes there is valid reason to take unknown swarms to an isolation apiary until proven healthy ...)
What I was suggesting regarding moving your box, was just moving it a couple of feet, so that you could tell whether stragglers were rejoining the box, or a bunch on the grass where the nuc had been previously (and where Q might then still be).
But because they are rejoining the nuc, no need to make any shift of the box. If you shift the nuc more than a few feet, you will be bleeding off some bees that won't identify where their swarm group has gone.

Bees performing Nasonov-fanning headstands at the entrance is a brilliant indicator of Q being inside. If you don't know what to look for, take a look at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Dl1CtSihc
The 'fanners' are putting up a scent trail to "call in" the rest of the swarm to their new home.
They don't need to do it after everyone has found where she is ... so they don't keep doing it for days after moving in.


My interpretation of your reports is that Q was underneath the nuc, and you only got her inside at your second "dumping" attempt.


Let them settle and draw some comb.
Once they have moved in, open the QX entrance. Until then, keep checking that it hasn't become blocked by Drones trapped inside (yes, swarms have some Drones caught up in the general excitement).
Being a small entrance it is easily blocked.

Feeding.
Normally, you shouldn't feed for 3 days after swarming.
Or right after hiving (you could be refuelling them to abscond).
However, after sitting outside your nuc for a couple of days, this lot ain't going anywhere and will need feeding swiftly.
Starting now and continuing even after hiving them in a full hive, you should maintain a supply of 50/50 syrup and shuffle and turn frames to get a whole brood box of frames beautifully, quickly and completely drawn.
A swarm is a comb-making machine. But they'll stop (and not restart) if either they are satisfied that their comb is adequate for now or the 'flow' of syrup/nectar stops. (Don't let the feeder go empty!)
 
Ahh, so the queen was under the nuc? The really simple explanation needing no real correction other than putting her inside.
 
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3) Using some old comb may be a job for tomorrow, as is feeding. I need to open one of my other hives to get some though ...

No need now for old comb or brood.

Feed the swarm (50/50 not stronger) to get them to draw lots of new comb for you.
 
I read that they had been clustering outside the hive from Thursday to Sunday? If it takes to page three to get the simple and most obvious there are not many sharp answers fothcoming.

Do try to give the simple fixes at point 1); not neatly concealed, like an afterthought, at point 6).

What other issues were there? Apart from a six frame nuc with deep frames is likely not anywhere big enough for a good prime swarm (could have been far less than 'good' , of course, but that is yet another possible issue).
 

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