large queens

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jonnybeegood

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I visited someones bees last year & was really surprised at the size of their queens, they were so easy to spot in a frame of bees, they were twice the size of mine literally. I never got to ask him how they were so big.
Is there a way of rearing larger queens? is there an advantage to having large queens like this apart from the obvious?
 
I had some Greek ( Crapolian??) bees at one time... queens were big and wide and easy to find even bigger than the drones..... perhaps cross in some Greek genes into the mix..... a Zorbfast?

They were not very fecund ... ate all their stores, so I did not get a honey harvest from them. Died out when I foolishly opened up the colonies on the coldest day of Winter to pour the horrible syrupy acid over them... dead by Spring with Nosema!

Perhaps not suited to the Devon temperate maritime climate...... that was in the days before I moves West across the Tamar!


Yeghes da
 
? is there an advantage to having large queens like this apart from the obvious?

Swarming colony rears maximum size queens when you change larva in queen cells. But it depends on strain of bees, what size queens will bee.

Smallest queens you get from emergency cells and from small nucs.
 
I had some Greek ( Crapolian??) bees at one time... queens were big and wide and easy to find even bigger than the drones..... perhaps cross in some Greek genes into the mix..... a Zorbfast?

They were not very fecund ... ate all their stores, so I did not get a honey harvest from them. Died out when I foolishly opened up the colonies on the coldest day of Winter to pour the horrible syrupy acid over them... dead by Spring with Nosema!

Perhaps not suited to the Devon temperate maritime climate...... that was in the days before I moves West across the Tamar!


Yeghes da

Cecropia. Had much the same result several years ago...and no acid involved. Queens were nothing extraordinary for size, but gee they were slow in spring, got very much less honey than my preferred strains, and most died first winter. Very few survived a second season.

Other types (apparently) from the same area fared even worse.

Not a uniform tale however, as some beekeepers really like the Greek product.

Large queens as such are merely a general indication of a queens nutritional status during development and thus her potential to be good. Its not in any way a hard and fast call, as many large queens are not especially vigorous layers, and some remarkably small ones perform brilliantly.

We have one amusing example right now in our own unit. Jolanta was harvesting queens in the mating apiary one day and was gnashing her teeth at one Apidea, as a queen was laying a lovely pattern in it yet she could not find her. Eventually we did find her, and she was actually marginally smaller than a worker and very hard to see. She did not have the heart to administer the crunch treatment so caged her up anyway. Later that day we were introducing queens into splits and came up one short.....all that was left was the tiny queen, by now nicknamed 'mini'. Well we gave it a chance in the sure knowledge it would supercede. It didn't. During a couple of visits to the bees on the heather by associations (we do a couple of these every year) the challenge was for some of their members to find the queen 'in that hive over there'...... only one ever found her.

Yet she performed just as well as the other queens in the group, has overwintered in fine condition, and is sitting on an OSR field just coming into flower with 8 bars of brood and has been supered. Yes. 'mini' is still going strong. Strange. Goes against all I expected to happen.
 
Swarming colony rears maximum size queens when you change larva in queen cells. But it depends on strain of bees, what size queens will bee.

Smallest queens you get from emergency cells and from small nucs.

Ah, so you cant get any strain just to make bigger queen cells or put in large queen cups & breed larger queens yourself? His queens were about 1 1/2 " long, huge things! No idea what strain they were.
 
Fascinating story ILTD.... it seems to me that the various honeybee types, strains, sub genera etc all seem to fit a particular environmental niche.
My own "strain" or Cornish Black honeybees ( purest Cornish Amm) seem to be very well adjusted to our local environment conditions.. the queens seem to be long but thin.
I doubt if they would do well in the different conditions of say Yorkshire, here in the Tamar Valley we have endless warm Spring sunshine and with so many growers for the flower and fruit industry,,, adequate all year round forage... not forgetting the late Himalayan Balsam growing along the banks of the Great grey green greasy Tamar river all set about with social housing!!!!


Yeghes da
 
Ah, so you cant get any strain just to make bigger queen cells or put in large queen cups & breed larger queens yourself? His queens were about 1 1/2 " long, huge things! No idea what strain they were.

Sometimes the queen is so big, that it does not get eggs on the bottom of cells. That is too fat.

.
 
Jolanta was harvesting queens in the mating apiary one day and was gnashing her teeth at one Apidea, as a queen was laying a lovely pattern in it yet she could not find her. Eventually we did find her, and she was actually marginally smaller than a worker and very hard to see.

I had one like that last year. The cell was tucked away in the corner of a frame and I missed it. She was so small that she could easily get through a marking cage...and she could run FAST!
 
I marked a queen last weekend that was one of the smallest I had ever seen and she had laid up a BB and 3 supers already.
 
Large queens as such are merely a general indication of a queens nutritional status during development and thus her potential to be good. Its not in any way a hard and fast call, as many large queens are not especially vigorous layers, and some remarkably small ones perform brilliantly.

Yet, according to Ted Hooper, a well fed queen with poor genes will out perform a poor fed queen with good genes.
 
Yet, according to Ted Hooper, a well fed queen with poor genes will out perform a poor fed queen with good genes.

I rear much spare queens. If they are not able to lay enough from the beginning, I squeeze them.

Well laying queens need continuous selection. They does not appeat by itself.
Variation is big without selection.
 
Yet, according to Ted Hooper, a well fed queen with poor genes will out perform a poor fed queen with good genes.

Lets think about that.... a well fed queen that has a high degree of inbreeding (few alleles) will have a well developed reproductive system and be able to go back and relay in cells that contain diploid drones which are subsequently eaten by the workers. The brood pattern would be a mess, with cells containing brood at different stages of development and, probably, lots of empty cells where she hadn't relaid. Alternatively, a poorly nourished queen would have an inhibited reproductive system that may not function well, or not at all if it has atrophied. However, this malnurished queen has good genes, either because of its pedigree or a combination with the drones it has mated with. if it was the former, the queen would be useless as she wouldn't lay many eggs. If it was the latter, she's a good queen and probably much better than the inbred one.
We have to look past these "sound-bites" and understand what they mean.
 
How common is inbreeding, when's queens go out and mate with 15+ drones from who knows where? Perhaps inbreeding comes from the beekeers who continuously choose queens with the same qualities to breed from.
In natural mating the virgin flies out to mate with any drones who can catch her. According to Gudran Koenigers presentation at the National Honey Show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI26DLS2CyM drones tend to go to nearer congregational areas and queens tend to go to further DCA's (although not exclusively). This means that there is a possibility of some inbreeding. I grant you, it should be minimal, but it is random so, who knows. In selective breeding, you have control over both sides of the pedigree. The breeding group I work with does select for a range of qualities but the queens used (and the family groups used) are different. You can get an idea of the breeding value here https://www2.hu-berlin.de/beebreed/ZWS/Startseiten/englisch/Bienenzucht-Start.html
The inbreeding coefficient of both queen and worker is one of the factors that is considered when selecting breeding material
 
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