Winter insulation?

TryingToLetThemBee said:

It's REALLY good to have you back posting .

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This is grazy issue...even in Finland.

You have there so much to learn, but guys have such opinion that everything is OK like grandpa said. Most of beekepers here are at the age of grandpa.

Knowledge about insulation, wintering, winter temps etc are so complicated that it has nothing to do with practical beekeeping. A beginner hardly learns the basics.

I have no problems. I have payed about my learnings long time ago.
Our winter is so severe that we have no afford to faults or beginners' or to 1-hive owner's theories. You learn quickly or you loose your hives next winter.
But where have those self made inventors enough.

Our winter is difficult to bees because bees are inside the hive the whole time 5 months. Then they continue their winter 1-2 months more.

We cannot feed hives after September when they are full feeded. Then after cleansing flight in March or April it id possible to look hive again, what is going there.

In insulated hives food lasts 50% longer. It means that if you have uninsulated hive, colonies will die before cleansing flight. From Sept to Feb time is 6 months. With insulation colonies get 50% more time = 9 months. It means that food will last to May.

Of course there are individual hives which starve. But all those hives which continue brooding, they will die in December. But then the yard have no southern genes and continuous brooders will meet natural death.


But of course our guys are ready fight with guns for they mesh floor and not electrict heating and not that and that. - Nice to go prison for mesh floor.
And what insulation to put onto inner cover. These guys here are not wiser. Only winter is more severe.

And of course what kind of floor it must be....Only one type is good and others are , not saying from where...Even if the bad ones work as well.

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Finman said:

But all those hives which continue brooding, they will die in December. .

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This is my concern about insulation and why I am going to stuff the brood box; my bees, like most in the UK for the last 100 years, are basically southerners. I have no choice but to experiment, since I have never done this before.

But finman, you deal with your hives this way because of your weather conditions, we don't HAVE to because our winters are far less harsh. Our bees can fly in any month if the weather is warm enough. Insulation is not a necessity here, it is a question of wether we feel we may benefit by insulating or heating. I do neither and have no losses.
E

TryingToLetThemBee said:

This is my concern about insulation and why I am going to stuff the brood box; my bees, like most in the UK for the last 100 years, are basically southerners. I have no choice but to experiment, since I have never done this before.

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Our bees started as buck fast and now have a fair percentage of black bees in there. The insulation level doesn't make these bees brood in a unremitting manner. They appear to slow/stop if the weather
/forage is bad and around the winter solstice. They consume less food than finskis.

derekm said:

Our bees started as buck fast and now have a fair percentage of black bees in there. The insulation level doesn't make these bees brood in a unremitting manner. They appear to slow/stop if the weather
/forage is bad and around the winter solstice. They consume less food than finskis.

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Thanks, Derek. Very useful; appreciate it.

enrico said:

But finman, you deal with your hives this way because of your weather conditions, we don't HAVE to because our winters are far less harsh. Our bees can fly in any month if the weather is warm enough. Insulation is not a necessity here, it is a question of wether we feel we may benefit by insulating or heating. I do neither and have no losses.
E

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I have losses. I keep spare hives for that reason.

Winter is really mild in UK.

But I have been so long in this forum, and I have seen your hive pictures, your summer nursing does not get applauses from me. You over ventilate your hives in summer and in spring and that is why their build up is poor.

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From where I learned temp issues

10 years ago I lost 2/3 of my hives. I had couple of normal hives and very small colonies left and April was cold. -8 at night. One hive was only one frame of bees


I had known electrict heating since beginning 40 years but now I drove with car to nearest petty shop and I bought different kind of terrarium heaters.
I tried them and I found how they work.

Extra heating teached really much about "warm hive", about ventilation, minimum factors in spring build up and even summer build up when weathers are bad.

That has been my biggest knowhow in my later beekeeping.
I learned too, how to make good nucs and how to get them quickly to productive hives.

I learned too, that do not split hives in Spring. It is waste of bees.

sharonh said:

Hi everyone,
Weather is starting to change, so I want to get prepared.

Both my colonies are fed.
I never used Kingspan before, but have got 100 mm & 50 mm.

My first colony is in a national over a super.
Do I cut a square to fit inside an eke, above the crown board or just put it sitting on the crown board with roof over ?

My second colony is in a poly nuc, which has a clear film crown board.
I have an eke for this also.

If fondant is needed at any stage, surely this will rise the insulation, so what way is the best way to combat that.

Lastly, when does everyone plan to install insulation?
Do you wait until temp is at a certain level before doing so ?

Thanks in advance.
Sharon

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I do this when the Ivy is finishing. I also put some fondant (IN A CONTAINER) in the cavity if I'm concerned about level of stores. I always put a take away container in the cavity and cover any extra holes in a feeder board so the bees don't eat away the insulation. I also put some fondant on when I do the winter oxalic in JANUARY .

Finman do you have any photos of your hives ?

brianmc said:

Since this thread has Derekm's attention...

With regard to "easy wins"... Insulating the top of the hive (crown board) seems to offer the most benefit with the simplest interventions for someone with wooden national hives.

I've bought 50mm Kingspan to provide insulated "crown boards" to my hives and I'm trying to come up with a robust solution without reducing the benefits of the insulation too much.

The simplest solution is to use a 460mm square slab of kingspan instead of a crown board but that won't be robust around the edges. So I would like to frame it.

After that I am worried about the silver paper surfaces and how fragile they are. I can't scrape them off with the hive tool. Will the bees eventually chew through them? A skin of plywood would act as a cold bridge I guess but is it significant? I'm considering this a permanent replacement for normal crown boards.

View attachment 8949

Some advice would be great if you can. While I see the thermal benefits of a fully insulated outer cover, it would be inconvenient to work with compared to replacing the crown board with something like the above.

Thanks!

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My solution to this "Retaining the Heat" problem is what I call my Hive Cozy. Think of an oversized roof that covers the whole of the brood box, made from 50mm Kingspan. The inside dimensions between opposite walls is 470mm, which gives a theoretical gap around the 14x12 plywood National of 5mm. The top is also 50mm Kingspan. Everything is covered in duct tape. There is a very thin aluminium covering on the top to shed water. The whole thing cost £5.50 - insulation came from a skip, duct tape £2.50 from Aldi and £3 for the aluminium from a caravan in a scrap yard. The joints were pinned with 5mm wooden dowelling material.

My floor is Open Mesh, which I intend to to leave open during the winter to provide ventilation.

I won't know 'til next year how effective this Cozy is, but intuitively, I feel if you stop the drafts and reduce thermal conductance, you must reduce the amount of fuel used by your bee "heat engine"

CVB

I saw your cosy at Boad, very neatly done. I had considered something similar but having good results with my top only insulation I thought I'd stick with it and see if yours presented any problems before wrapping all the way round. Recycling, love it.

Bob Bee said:

I do this when the Ivy is finishing. I also put some fondant (IN A CONTAINER) in the cavity if I'm concerned about level of stores. I always put a take away container in the cavity and cover any extra holes in a feeder board so the bees don't eat away the insulation. I also put some fondant on when I do the winter oxalic in JANUARY .

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Thanks Bob Bee

That's a great idea. I have some take out containers. So you have the insulation in an eke. And just place it on the feeder board ,with the side feed hole covered. The middle one covered unless your feeding fondant.
I plan to wait until ivy flow is over also ,before insulation, just want to have something made up, ready for it.
Thanks for the picture, great help.
Regards
Sharon

Has anyone overwintered a colony in a poly nuc, and did you use an eke to put insulation in. Was wondering with it just having a clear film crown
view. What worked well as the roof seems thinner than the side walls?

sharonh said:

Has anyone overwintered a colony in a poly nuc, and did you use an eke to put insulation in. Was wondering with it just having a clear film crown
view. What worked well as the roof seems thinner than the side walls?

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Yes, worked for me last year. Clear crownboard, insulation in the eke, and a strip in the feeder compartment. When it got really cold in early spring this year, I propped insulation board on top and sides, with bricks to hold in place. I found it is possible to get small nucs through cold winters, although it was necessary to check on them, and of course, the stronger the nuc the better its chances, and the less attention it will need.

Suzi Q said:

Yes, worked for me last year. Clear crownboard, insulation in the eke, and a strip in the feeder compartment. When it got really cold in early spring this year, I propped insulation board on top and sides, with bricks to hold in place. I found it is possible to get small nucs through cold winters, although it was necessary to check on them, and of course, the stronger the nuc the better its chances, and the less attention it will need.

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Thanks Suzi,

That's reassuring as never over wintered a colony in a poly nuc before.

With the clear film crown board, was wondering ,if fondant was needed in the depth of winter,how do I feed it. Don't really like the idea of cutting a feed hole in it.

Thanks again Suzi.

Got this idea from someone here? When the nuc became 'light' I cut some 50mm insulation board to fit tightly inside the eke, and an icecream container size hole in the centre. (Keep the cut-out for when not feeding) Cut a hole in the bottom of the container, put fondant in, and cover with the lid. It is easy to check if getting low on fondant, and carefully add more without disturbing the bees. All cut edges of the insulation should be taped, especially since the insulation board, in effect, will be the crownboard. The clear film crownboard goes on top. Another way to feed fondant is to just keep adding thin strips to the topbars, although in a long cold spell, with a small nuc, the heat loss and disturbance may not be such a good idea.

sharonh said:

Has anyone overwintered a colony in a poly nuc, and did you use an eke to put insulation in. Was wondering with it just having a clear film crown
view. What worked well as the roof seems thinner than the side walls?

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I overwintered 6, last winter, successfully, without any additional insulation.

sharonh said:

Thanks Bob Bee

That's a great idea. I have some take out containers. So you have the insulation in an eke. And just place it on the feeder board ,with the side feed hole covered. The middle one covered unless your feeding fondant.
I plan to wait until ivy flow is over also ,before insulation, just want to have something made up, ready for it.
Thanks for the picture, great help.
Regards
Sharon

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I use a super, rather than a special eke and simply push the insulation down tight to the feeder board, otherwise exactly right.
I got my foam from skips outside the local college when they were building.


Last year I made my own and this year I've bought fondant and simply cut the 2.5kg packs into four to go into the take away containers, lids on till needed. I remove the plastic bag it came in only just as I put it on the hive, it peels very easily.

Suzi Q said:

Got this idea from someone here? When the nuc became 'light' I cut some 50mm insulation board to fit tightly inside the eke, and an icecream container size hole in the centre. (Keep the cut-out for when not feeding) Cut a hole in the bottom of the container, put fondant in, and cover with the lid. It is easy to check if getting low on fondant, and carefully add more without disturbing the bees. All cut edges of the insulation should be taped, especially since the insulation board, in effect, will be the crownboard. The clear film crownboard goes on top. Another way to feed fondant is to just keep adding thin strips to the topbars, although in a long cold spell, with a small nuc, the heat loss and disturbance may not be such a good idea.

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Thanks Suzi,

That's a great idea, will do it that way so. So clear film goes on top of the insulation, great as didn't want to cut it to get a feed hole. That will be the poly nuc sorted.

Looks like everyone is putting the insulation above their feeder boards with wooden hives, a piece in center cut out with container taped inside to go over fondant.
I didn't want to start cutting, until I knew what to do. Was very interesting to see what everyone else did ,some great ideas .
Thank you again
Sharon

Bob Bee said:

I use a super, rather than a special eke and simply push the insulation down tight to the feeder board, otherwise exactly right.
I got my foam from skips outside the local college when they were building.

Last year I made my own and this year I've bought fondant and simply cut the 2.5kg packs into four to go into the take away containers, lids on till needed. I remove the plastic bag it came in only just as I put it on the hive, it peels very easily.

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Thanks Bob,

You have given me great ideas. The photos were an excellent help.
You use a super. Kingspan would be more solid than foam, could be hard to get out of a super. I might make an eke to fit around it. I will be able to use it every winter then.

Thanks again for all your help, much appreciated.
Sharon