supercedure cells

Queen is 2 years old and laying well but seems like the girls have decided her time is up as they have started to build supercedure cells. One originally but now three. Each is just a cup at the minute on a seperate frame but not "charged" yet so left them to see what happens. Colony is strong with plenty of bias (70% capped) so gone to double brood to keep there minds focused elsewhere .

Do you mean two years old or do you mean second season? Seems that some on the forum have counted differently to me, so perhaps needs clarification.

If she is laying well, what is the problem? Would you recognise developing queen cups as supercedure or swarm , or indeed just simply 'play' cups?

I would expect brood to be in approx proportions of 1:2:4 (eggs:larvae:capped) depending, of course, on whether her lay-rate was increasing, static, or decreasing.

I am mystified why you would try to divert them from building supercedure cells (if that is what they are) by going to double brood. Not really such a good time to do that if you have a failing queen?

Did you have a question you wanted to ask on the thread? Otherwise it seems like just another blog in the wrong section.

RAB

Dared said:

Queen is 2 years old and laying well but seems like the girls have decided her time is up as they have started to build supercedure cells. One originally but now three. Each is just a cup at the minute on a seperate frame but not "charged" yet so left them to see what happens. Colony is strong with plenty of bias (70% capped) so gone to double brood to keep there minds focused elsewhere .

Click to expand...

No need to worry just yet queen cups are just that and some hives can be full of them where as other hardly ever any. I only ever look at them when I see the bees showing interest in them and then most of the time they are empty. The extra space sounds like a good move, did you place the new brood under or over the original.

Hi Dared,
I can see where you are coming from. A very experienced beek in our apiary often tear first attempts at QCs down (obviously he knows the queen is present) and they don't rebuild. I have done it myself when I have had a very strong laying queen and thought 'you can't be serious' girls. Be vigilant though as the starting shot has been fired.

An alternative approach if you have a second brood chamber is to go down the "Demaree" route as this will not only give your 2 yr old queen another BC to go at but should also act as a swarm preventative measure and as a bonus generate a new queen in the top.

Play cups are a normal part of the hive scenery.
Nothing to get excited about really.
And I don't think their location is particularly significant, possibly only reflecting an irregularity in the comb.

Charged Queen Cells however are a call to action. Not instant panic, but a thoughtful prompt (not necessarily immediate, but certainly not delayed) implementation of a plan that you have already thought through.
You will probably need some spare kit for your plans. At this time of year, you need to have that all ready, on immediate standby. You don't really have time to go shopping AFTER you spot charged QCs.

As to making those plans, and the different situations you need to think through BEFORE you spot some QCs, that (free) Welsh BKA QC booklet is helpful for focussing your thoughts.
See http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28463

masterBK said:

An alternative approach if you have a second brood chamber is to go down the "Demaree" route as this will not only give your 2 yr old queen another BC to go at but should also act as a swarm preventative measure and as a bonus generate a new queen in the top.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the helpful response, was thinking about that but decided to wait and see if they do anything with the cups first.

TB,

I put the new BC under the existing one as assumed they would prefer to move down rather than up, hope that is ok?

Itma,

Have two spare hive all built and ready to go Have copies of the Welsh BKA booklet which is very helpful.

itma said:

Charged Queen Cells however are a call to action. Not instant panic, but a thoughtful prompt (not necessarily immediate, but certainly not delayed) implementation of a plan that you have already thought through.

Click to expand...

Unless, like me, you find a huge 14 x 12 at the weekend full of bees, about a dozen QCs, mostly sealed, and despite more than an hour of isolating the BB and letting the flyers go home, no sign of her.

Up to then, I was worried, then gave it up, as there was little I could do but watch for a swarm if she is still there (none yet, so probably not), prepare for a new queen and hope to prevent any casts.

This is what you actually wrote:

''Queen is 2 years old and laying well but seems like the girls have decided her time is up as they have started to build supercedure cells.

Seems very clear to me that you indicated they were supercedure cells and nothing else. I think MB can also read perfectly well.

You need to look up 'demaree', I think and follow the instruction or description of it. It is not going double brood, per se.

We don't even know if you have supered the colony, although I would hope you have.

Now that we know you only thought they might be possible supercedure cells and actually have a query, going to double brood is a reasonable option, but demaree would further help to avoid swarming.

oliver90owner said:

This is what you actually wrote:

''Queen is 2 years old and laying well but seems like the girls have decided her time is up as they have started to build supercedure cells.

Seems very clear to me that you indicated they were supercedure cells and nothing else. I think MB can also read perfectly well.

You need to look up 'demaree', I think and follow the instruction or description of it. It is not going double brood, per se.

We don't even know if you have supered the colony, although I would hope you have.

Now that we know you only thought they might be possible supercedure cells and actually have a query, going to double brood is a reasonable option, but demaree would further help to avoid swarming.

Click to expand...

I thought they are supercedure rather than swarm as they are in the middle of the comb not at the bottom.

Dared said:

I thought they are supercedure rather than swarm as they are in the middle of the comb not at the bottom.

Click to expand...

That can't be relied on, it's an unreliable rule of thumb.
Cazza

psafloyd said:

Unless, like me, you find a huge 14 x 12 at the weekend full of bees, about a dozen QCs, mostly sealed, and despite more than an hour of isolating the BB and letting the flyers go home, no sign of her.

Up to then, I was worried, then gave it up, as there was little I could do but watch for a swarm if she is still there (none yet, so probably not), prepare for a new queen and hope to prevent any casts.

Click to expand...

Ummm, without the flying bees, who is going to swarm?

Separating ANY one of fliers/brood/Q from the other two prevents the swarm.
From sealing, you have a full week before you need worry about the possibility of casts …

"Scientific studies of swarming show that (with regard to 'flying bees') this is totally incorrect and that a prime swarm is dominated by young bees, with up to 70% being younger than 10 days old and that includes individuals as young as 4 days old."

A quote from an article by Wally Shaw.

Seeley explains how the swarm is initiated and then shepherded by older 'forager' bees.
Without them in the group, the youngsters are not going anywhere.

How many shepherds do you need for a flock of sheep?

If he has a quad bike and a couple of dogs one if the flock is a moderate size, if you are talking about New Zealand herds then there are often quite a few

But still 'a few' for a lot of sheep. I thought sheep were all flocks and cattle were herds!

Swarm said:

"Scientific studies of swarming show that (with regard to 'flying bees') this is totally incorrect and that a prime swarm is dominated by young bees, with up to 70% being younger than 10 days old and that includes individuals as young as 4 days old."

A quote from an article by Wally Shaw.

Click to expand...

Had the same sort of thing mentioned at a BKA talk last year. Made sense that they'd take younger bees with them to make wax straight away, rather than having to wait for older bees to revert to wax making.