Help please. I Can't even find the creek, let alone the paddle!

Ok so I am struggling now and need some help.
I started a Bailey comb change last week. I checked on it today with the intention of adding a queen excluder and new entrance above the bottom brood. I moved the top brood box to one side and went through each frame. Not all had been drawn but there were some eggs on the new comb. I took my time looking for the queen but no way could I find her.
I then put a sheet over that box and turned to the bottom brood box.
On going through that box I was again looking for the queen. I couldn't find her anywhere but I did find 3 or 4 play cups,3 or 4 queen cells with jelly.3 QC's with grubs and one capped QC. I obviously missed this one when I started the Bailey.
I had all the equipment and method in my mind to carry out an AS. The problem is that I can't find the blessed queen.
In a panic, to buy me a day or two I removed all queen cells. I need to act but don't know what to do.
Any advice?

You may of also removed your bees hope of a new queen if the old queen had died(been squashed)

Was your Queen marked? If yes and you couldn't find her she may already have left with a swarm (capped Q cell often points to swarm having left). Do there seem to be fewer bees than before? Alternatively this may be supercedure. Commonly practiced Bailey comb exchange involves finding Q ab initio and putting her in top bb on one drawn frame above Qexcluder and new hive entrance, bottom entrance having been closed

Not going to be much help or commfort sorry. Capped queen cell usually means swarmed or supercedure. Taking down queen cells is a way of delaying/frustrating swarming but if she's gone you've now lost all chance of recovery unless you can obtain a frame of broad with eggs.

Please try to read the posts before replying.

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Russel said:

you've now lost all chance of recovery unless you can obtain a frame of broad with eggs.

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beenovice said:

I moved the top brood box to one side and went through each frame. Not all had been drawn but there were some eggs on the new comb.

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Don't lose heart. You say the top box had eggs in it, so if you've lost your Queen for any reason, the bees have a chance to make a new one,

I'd be inclined to brush everyone down into the bottom box and close the entrance, then put the new box on top above a QX and new entrance (facing same way), leave them alone for 4 or 5 days, then inspect the bottom box for eggs.

Hope it works out for you and don't panic.

Amari said:

Was your Queen marked? If yes and you couldn't find her she may already have left with a swarm (capped Q cell often points to swarm having left). Do there seem to be fewer bees than before? Alternatively this may be supercedure. Commonly practiced Bailey comb exchange involves finding Q ab initio and putting her in top bb on one drawn frame above Qexcluder and new hive entrance, bottom entrance having been closed

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No, the queen wasn't marked. I haven't been able to find her for 6 months or more. There does not seem to be any less bees. The hive is well packed with bees. Particularly the bottom brood box.
Regarding supercedure possibility. most of the queen cells were on the bottoms of the frames. Only one was on the sides.

I removed ALL queen cells.

BeeN - so you probably still have the Q and if not certainly enough eggs for the bees to make emergency Q cells.

I suggest you consolidate your boxes to make one hive/colony (no Q exc) and leave alone for 2 weeks.

When you then inspect you will find either sealed Q cells or brood in all stages (bias) with the Q near the eggs.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

richard

galileo said:

I'd be inclined to brush everyone down into the bottom box and close the entrance, then put the new box on top above a QX and new entrance (facing same way), leave them alone for 4 or 5 days, then inspect the bottom box for eggs.

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Sorry, but why? With a Bailey Change the new box and new frames are at the top, and that's where OP needs the queen to be for it to be successful.

Only way of getting the new frames in the lower box is to switch position of the boxes, which could have an impact on wax drawing - upper box is warmest.

Do not leave alone for a further two weeks.

If there were eggs, how old were they?

Insert a Q/E to isolate the queen if she is still there. If she is still laying you will know which box she is in within a couple of days if you can recognize how old they are.

Separate the brood box with queen into two halves and check which half the queen is in. Either find her more precisely or make a nuc with her in it. That way you would have insurance, should any other queen cells are made (they will be!).

If she has swarmed, you will find emergency cells, not swarm cells. But at least you will know what is actually happening.

Trusting to luck could easily cost you dearly, scrub queen, casts or whatever.

BeeJoyful said:

Sorry, but why? With a Bailey Change the new box and new frames are at the top, and that's where OP needs the queen to be for it to be successful.

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I agree, but the more pressing need is to establish whether or not the hive is Q+ and if not, to get it that way. The Bailey is secondary to that. If as I suspect, the hive still has its Queen, she will be trapped downstairs unable to swarm. If inspection in 4 or 5 days reveals eggs in the bottom box, the OP has the requisite information to make reasoned decisions as to what to do next.

Beyond that, as above.

This a classic case as to why shook swarm is better than Bailey as it takes no time at all instead of 3 weeks or more for broadly the same result ie comb change, especially if one shakes the bees into an open super/BB which is on top of the QE. This immediately isolates the Queen above the QE so that she can be marked and clipped (can't take off with the swarm then can she?), assuming of course that she hasn't already absconded which actually seems most likely to have happened based upon what you say. Shook swarm also means that although you sacrifice any brood, especially any that is concealing varroa, you are then able to treat with oxalic to take the colony through to the autumn in good health.

oliver90owner said:

Do not leave alone for a further two weeks.

If there were eggs, how old were they?

Insert a Q/E to isolate the queen if she is still there. If she is still laying you will know which box she is in within a couple of days if you can recognize how old they are.

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The eggs were the faintest of specs in the top brood box. I would have said no more than 2 days. More likely to have been today's.

From the amount of eggs ( of different ages), and bias, I really do think the queen is still there.
I am also very doubtful that they have already swarmed. Bee numbers are very high, and have only increased from 2 weeks ago and 1 week ago

RAB - would it be worth putting a QE between the brood boxes as you suggest, but also put a QE between the bottom brood and the floor. To stop the queen leaving.

. I would have said no more than 2 days

There is a considerable difference between eggs of less than one day and of over two days. Look it up.

RAB

Some funny ideas going around about entrances and Q/Es.

Trapping drones in the hive, stopping the queen leaving, bees walking over frames (od not).

She ain't going anywhere unless there are charged queen cells with developed larvae in them. She would be very unlikely to leave before one was capped, either. That said, it might not take too long for that to occur after cells have been pulled down.

Would it beworth putting a Q/E between the two brood boxes? Would I have written so if I did not think it?

Between the bottom box and the floor? I haven't a clue where the entrance is now, but I think you may be able to work it out.

RAB

I can't find any reference to differences of very early eggs( less than a day, 1 day, etc). I can definitely say they are feint, slim eggs, standing on end.
I only put the foundation on on Saturday, which would have had to be drawn ( say Sunday), so they can only be very young. If I were to make a call on it I would say they were today's, (yesterday now)
I have an opportunity to inspect this afternoon. I plan on lifting top brood box off in the hope she is laying in nice clean comb. Place on a QE, and have another look for her and the state of play. Alternatively I could leave to settle for a day or two and check on Friday afternoon

Day 1 eggs are upright and lay down as days progress. O90 o says it as it is, encouraging you to think.

Queen (if there) must be found.
I would shake all bees into the original box and move this box to the other side of the apiary on its stand with a roof on. Place the new box with the new frames on a stand on the original site with roof. After 2-3 hours a lot of the flying bees will have returned to the original site. The queen should now be easily found. At this stage the choice is yours but I would reunite the queen in the original box, AS done!

Gribbee said:

Queen (if there) must be found.
I would shake all bees into the original box and move this box to the other side of the apiary on its stand with a roof on. Place the new box with the new frames on a stand on the original site with roof. After 2-3 hours a lot of the flying bees will have returned to the original site. The queen should now be easily found. At this stage the choice is yours but I would reunite the queen in the original box, AS done!

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See my item 12 above re trapping the queen.

Ok so here's an update after my inspection today- major leap forward hopefully.
1) I didn't use smoke initially for fear it would make the queen run.
2) Moved top box to the side so that flyers weren't bothering me.
3) Queen found in top box - woohoo!
4) Queen marked - double woohoo!
5) top box put back together.
6) turned my attention to the bottom box. Looking to see how they had repaired the damage caused by me yesterday. In doing so I found a queen cell that I must have missed yesterday. Is had quite a large grub inside with jelly, but the jelly was quite dull. Could this be a result of shaking the frames yesterday?
7) anyway, decided to carry out an AS.
8) moved the bottom box to one side containing the queen cell. Placed a crown board and feeder. Fed with thick syrup as this is all I had with me (originally planned for the bailey comb change I was half way through).
9) Placed the top box containing newly drawn foundation and queen on original site to catch flyers. Placed the super on top.

I know I have probably done something wrong, but is feel I am in a far better position than yesterday. My question now is what should I do in the coming days?