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Does anyone still use solid floors? If so, why?

Emergencies. I have no qualms about overwintering on a solid floor if a problem arises with a mesh floor.

BUT I have, for years, used only BOTTOM ventilation. It may pose one or two additional requirements and a little extra effort to place the equivalent of matchsticks but UNDER the brood box. I actually have a few short strips of wood around 2 1/2 mm thick and about 19mm wide.

I don't necessarily leave a gap all the way around as the matchstick brigade suggest - it is simply not needed. So a gap at the top of similar dimensions is NOT needed; my bottom gap does NOT lose heat and induce through-draughts 24/7 for the whole winter. I've done it several times and I KNOW it works.

The hive location has to be considered - too much to ask of some, I'm afraid. The hive needs to tilted forward slightly to drain any moisture ingress or condensation or reliable drainage being arranged if water is present. Again, too much to ask of some?

Ventilation on an as-needed basis IS always going to be better than imposed 24/7 losses associated with forcing unwanted gaping holes above the cluster - anywhere above the cluster.

Sorry, but those proponents of matchsticks cannot argue the above. They have no credence whatsoever.

Claiming their bees survive OK is NOT a valid argument because the bees will do all they can, to survive. It is not any any more plausible claim than undernourished children do not die as long as they get the very minimum. Some have to live and survive like that but it is not a satisfactory situation! There will be climates where it matters not a jot if gaping holes are left in the roof -drowning in the monsoons might be a bigger issue!

There will be nobody who argues sensibly for top over bottom ventilation without them saying only 'it works for them'. Yes, it might - but bottom ventilation works for all. ALL, yes, ALL. Any takers?
 
Sometimes its better not rip limbs off and beat them with soggy end ... even if you are right.
The match sticks is an attempt to stop a bad situation being worse. Its not desirable or optimal, the constraints that gave it a vestige of validity have long since vanished.

As the farmer said when asked for directions "if i was you i wouldnt start from here"

I have another session in fortnight dealing with..

  • I always put matchsticks in
  • I leave the feed holes open
  • Bees only heat the cluster not the hive
  • if you insulate won't they be more active and eat more stores?
  • Cold doesn't kill its damp that kills
  • You don't need insulation in summer
  • insulation will cause overheating in summer
  • you'll get them swarming
 
You won't get any argument from me RAB ... I spent 2 years pondering the common sense of insulation and ventilation before I built my first hive and without the benefit of advice from this forum ... I've mesh floor, crown board without holes which I seal to the top of the hive, 50mm kingspan on under the roof in summer and 100mm in winter, a drawer at the bottom of the hive gives them ventilation without draughts ... Totally works for me ...

But ... There's an awful lot of beekeepers I know who still believe and cannot be convinced other wise that cold bees eat less and are better kept with top ventilation - they don't accept the science or logic ... You are right - it's the 'works for me' attitude and the reluctance to change which stops them ... I even get the 'how much honey do you get ?' Thrown in to the argument ... As if it justified their position !
 
...
Add: If SHB does take hold, one method of control is the oil tray under the mesh. With the floor closed in again (for at least most of the year) if effect we're back to solid floors.

Not necessarily.
It's possible to have a floor box containing an oil tray, keeping the mesh floor, and making the oil tray smaller than the floor area.
With a smaller tray, the SBH and varroa can still be caught by having a 45 degree deflector around the edges of the floor box, so allowing any dropping pests to be 'funnelled' into the central oil bath, ventilation can still occur around the sides of the bath through the floor.

Alternatively, the ventilation could be provided by mesh in the sides of the floor box.
 
pargyle;442997 But ... There's an awful lot of beekeepers I know who still believe and cannot be convinced other wise that cold bees eat less and are better kept with top ventilation - they don't accept the science or logic ... You are right - it's the 'works for me' attitude and the reluctance to change which stops them ... I even get the 'how much honey do you get ?' Thrown in to the argument ... As if it justified their position ![/QUOTE said:
Having used a few 14x12 polyhives for a couple of years now, i am astounded how little stores the Bees eat in a well insulated polyhive, that put paidto any thoughts about "cold bees eat less" i find making space for brood in spring is more the problem with a poly hive as i have had to spin out heavy 14x12 frames in a manual two frame tangential extractor, it being the only one i could find that 14x12 hoffmans fitted (none of the extractor screens fitted my radial extractor)

next year i am trying very dilute 10:90 feed and frame bruising to see if they will do it themselves by converting water to brood as they do with condensation in a cedar hive
 
Add: If SHB does take hold, one method of control is the oil tray under the mesh. With the floor closed in again (for at least most of the year) if effect we're back to solid floors.

i have seen quite a few OMF floors over the years with galvanized trays instead of varroa monitoring boards. Does any one know which Retailer makes them
 
I have one hive with a solid floor, why do I use it? because I can. I see no difference in the bees in this hive to those on mesh floors.
 
Oh, this old chestnut! I won't be burning any books, I love them too much, but then I've read enough to know not to use matchsticks.
 
I have one hive with a solid floor, why do I use it? because I can. I see no difference in the bees in this hive to those on mesh floors.

When I ran warres (no longer - did not flourish here), I had two adjacent - one with solid floors, one with OMF. Both were the same in winter and the solid floor in spring was pretty clean.
 
tax payers money promotes matchsticks and Damp killer myth
from NBU publication Preparing your Hives for Winter

Hive in sound condition, waterproof and well ventilated.
Apiary sites need choosing carefully to ensure that they have good access in all weather,
firm but well drained ground, sunny, not in a frost pocket, good air circulation, etc. Damp
rather than cold kills bees
so check hives, especially roofs, to ensure rain is shed away. It is
best to ensure that your hives are off the ground on suitable stands. If your apiary site is not
vulnerable to windy conditions, and you are using open mesh floors, they can be left with the
floor inserts out. If not, or your hives are on solid floors, then you can lift the crown board on
two-millimetre laths. Used matchsticks are excellent for this purpose.
 
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I read that as a very begrudging admission that top ventilation is not needed with OMF.

Vulnerable to windy conditions? Treat the disease, not the symptoms! OMFs with 'floor inserts' defeats the whole object of being 'open'? Are they really that brain dead.

Actually it is likely penned by a progressive, but constrained by the bigots from above.

You can do all sorts of things. You can do far better than any top ventilation in any UK winter circumstance - bottom ventilation where ventilation is on an as required, not 24/7 imposed regime.

Cold does kill bees. We know they drop off the cluster if their temp drops to around 8 degrees, are unable to return, so die. Damp is also very bad and damp with cold even worse.

The single most important advantage of polyhives over timber is being dry and not as cold (read that as being warmer).

Why can these bigots not look at how (and why) colonies overwinter better polyhives than timber, take on board the simple reasons/differences for those differences and drag themselves into the current century? As they say, there are none so blind as those that do not want to see.

Nuff said? Probably more than enough for most to digest.
 
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it shows either DERA cannot understand the difference between heat loss and temperature or thinks beekeepers cannot. I propose to them an alternative wording for the section

Protecting your bees from Hypothermia
This involves protecting your bees from heat loss. This heat loss is from combination of lower temperatures, wind and water. Shelter your hives from external winds and rain. Arrange your hives so that the bees inside will not have cold condensation falling on them or near them. While they may be able withstand the lower temperatures, the overwhelming additional heat load of having to evaporate cold water to get warm may prove fatal either directly or through disease. To avoid cold condensation in uninsulated hives ensure adequate ventilation but avoid large extra losses of heat through roof openings. Preferably, insulate your hive, particularly at roof level. You may achieve this by inserting high performance insulating material between the crown board and the roof or alternatively use hives made out of high performance insulation e.g. EPS polystyrene.
 
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Does anyone still use solid floors? If so, why?

Still have a few hives with solid floors and I haven't noticed any difference in the colonies, bees seem to do just as well. I guess I clean them out a little more often and its more difficult to monitor mite drops but not a real problem .
S
 
I read that as a very begrudging admission that top ventilation is not needed with OMF.

Vulnerable to windy conditions? Treat the disease, not the symptoms! OMFs with 'floor inserts' defeats the whole object of being 'open'? Are they really that brain dead.

Actually it is likely penned by a progressive, but constrained by the bigots from above.

You can do all sorts of things. You can do far better than any top ventilation in any UK winter circumstance - bottom ventilation where ventilation is on an as required, not 24/7 imposed regime.

Cold does kill bees. We know they drop off the cluster if their temp drops to around 8 degrees, are unable to return, so die. Damp is also very bad and damp with cold even worse.

The single most important advantage of polyhives over timber is being dry and not as cold (read that as being warmer).

Why can these bigots not look at how (and why) colonies overwinter better polyhives than timber, take on board the simple reasons/differences for those differences and drag themselves into the current century? As they say, there are none so blind as those that do not want to see.

Nuff said? Probably more than enough for most to digest.

It's the lack of simple physics training. I blame the education system.

(Seriously)
 
It's the lack of simple physics training. I blame the education system.

(Seriously)

NBU is supposed to have scientists, and people with scientific training. This is a result of the stovepiping of knowledge, where specialisms, and group think crowd out simple general science.
I bet the persons who wrote this have done heat transfer at school, but that isnt post grad entomology, so it cant be relevant can it?
In my research amongst the entomology and apiculture papers I have found quite a few real howlers out there, and then there are the leaps of logic from some of those who interpret them.

The real classic is "if you insulate them they be warmer and therefore will eat more stores". if you apply basic thermodynamics to this then all of bees in polystyrene hives should be dead from heat stroke every winter. Yet there are Universities and honey businesses repeating this...
 
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If you insulate them will they brood more and for longer during winter and if so will they then eat more stores?
Bees without brood don't seem to go through much in the way of stores. Is there any point in bees producing brood during November & December?
My queens usually finish laying middle to end of october and don't start up again until late January yet colonies always seem to be strong and ready for the OSR in April. Surely there are some advantages in a brood break eg limiting Varroa
 
If you insulate them will they brood more and for longer during winter and if so will they then eat more stores?
Bees without brood don't seem to go through much in the way of stores. Is there any point in bees producing brood during November & December?
My queens usually finish laying middle to end of october and don't start up again until late January yet colonies always seem to be strong and ready for the OSR in April. Surely there are some advantages in a brood break eg limiting Varroa

The studies of insulation plus bottom entrance show considerably less stores consumed
 
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