Should I remove insulation board from inside hive to add frames?

I have a national hive which started as a 5 frame nuc in July which grew so fast I added a second standard size brood box above in the summer. Being a new hive I did not take any honey off it this year. All through august both boxes were full of bees with the brood being in both boxes. I put apiguard on half way through September but when it was time to add the second treatment the bees had reduced in number and only filled 7 seams in the lower box. Maybe they swarmed but there were no queen cups or anything I could see. They had a fair few frames of empty foundation at the edges of both boxes. I fed them 2.5 litres of inverted syrup which lasted 2 weeks plus. Refilled the feeder 4 days ago and yesterday found they had consumed 2.5 litres in 4 days flat. As there were too many frames to fit into one box But not enough full ones to fill two boxes I decided to remove the end frames and replace with insulation board inside the hive. only able to fit one board at back of bottom box as the rest (9 frames) is full of honey and a little brood (from the little I can see peering in from above). Top box I squeezed in board at front and back. This leaves 8 frames of mainly capped honey and one drawn frame. But it is a very very tight fit. So to my question. Should I remove insulation and put foundation frames back so they can pack yet more honey in? And I assume there is no point in feeding them anymore if there is nowhere to store it?

This is my one and only hive so I am somewhat limited for options. (Hence the osb idea)

Obee

I am a bit confused even after reading it twice! As long as you have one bb full of frames with honey or sugar syrup that should be fine to see you through winter. You could keep any capped ones that are in the other bb to replace empty ones of you wanted but.....
If you intend keepin two bb then put the full one at the top and the less full one at the bottom. Insulation in or out, makes little difference in bottom bb.
Hope that helps and doesn't further confuse!
E

Equally confused but it seems to me that, as Enrico says, the full box (without the insulation but with foundationed frames) should be the top box with the emptier once below, again without the insulation. Any insulation can be in the space between CB and roof, if you think it necessary (I have never bothered frankly but lots on this forum seem to want to for some reason I can't work out). And keep feeding until they stop and they will store it in the top box which is where it is most readily available to the cluster during the winter. The bees know what they are doing is the usual motto - don't doubt their ability to work out what they need to do for their own salvation. Also, oxalic acid, trickle or sublimation, end of Dec early Jan essential. See also http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26739&page=3 - insulation is not mandatory !!!

Not so confusing when read carefully.

The main simple mistake was adding a second brood chamber late in the year. Now it is 'put it right' time!

'A fair few empty frames of foundation' is a good indication of that. I would have reduced them to a single box, or rather never have added a second brood. A super may have been appropriate at some later stage, rather than adding that second brood.

Definitely insulate above the crownboard, arfermo is clearly a slow learner where energy and insulation is concerned (I would expect him to have no insulation at all, in his house roof space!).

The best that can be done now is to organise for a full box with brood; or fewer, but even numbers, in each of the two boxes, with insulation at each side, I would suggest.

Obee1 said:

I have a national hive which started as a 5 frame nuc in July which grew so fast I added a second standard size brood box above in the summer. Being a new hive I did not take any honey off it this year. All through august both boxes were full of bees with the brood being in both boxes. I put apiguard on half way through September but when it was time to add the second treatment the bees had reduced in number and only filled 7 seams in the lower box. Maybe they swarmed but there were no queen cups or anything I could see. They had a fair few frames of empty foundation at the edges of both boxes. I fed them 2.5 litres of inverted syrup which lasted 2 weeks plus. Refilled the feeder 4 days ago and yesterday found they had consumed 2.5 litres in 4 days flat. As there were too many frames to fit into one box But not enough full ones to fill two boxes I decided to remove the end frames and replace with insulation board inside the hive. only able to fit one board at back of bottom box as the rest (9 frames) is full of honey and a little brood (from the little I can see peering in from above). Top box I squeezed in board at front and back. This leaves 8 frames of mainly capped honey and one drawn frame. But it is a very very tight fit. So to my question. Should I remove insulation and put foundation frames back so they can pack yet more honey in? And I assume there is no point in feeding them anymore if there is nowhere to store it?

This is my one and only hive so I am somewhat limited for options. (Hence the osb idea)

Obee

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Stop feeding.
For winter, they need just 8 National brood (DN) frames, completely full both sides with capped honey. Beyond that, you have a potential embarrassment of unused stores getting in the way at the start of next season.
They have more than enough!

IF you choose to open up again, you'd be better to have that empty but drawn frame in the bottom box. A month ago, I'd have had it close to the brood area, but at this point it could go to the outside. The forecast for next weekend is very mild, which could give you an opportunity.

Other than that, I'd say it was a bit late for re-arranging them. And there wouldn't be much advantage.
You have the 9 frames "in play" in each box. Arranged with the blocked space at the same end, that's a fair arrangement.

The bees will sort themselves out (in time) if you give them a chance and the weather isn't so cold as to shut them down to a cluster.


Usual suggestions for forum-conventional wisdom regarding over-wintering. Inspection board out, coverboard holes closed off and insulation board above it (possibly inside an empty shallow (super) box).

oliver90owner said:

The best that can be done now is to organise for a full box with brood; or fewer, but even numbers, in each of the two boxes, with insulation at each side, I would suggest.

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Glad someone understood it. I only went double brood box as the bees were running out of space in first bb and having only one hive I wanted to be able to manipulate frames if necessary. I also knew I wasn't going to take any honey off for myself. Wish I had now! My big concern was not having enough stores for overwintering but it seems there are plenty. So, as they are now - both boxes with 8 or 9 full frames and insulation inside and in roof they should be ok just left. All I need do I treat for mites in December and hope for the best?

Obee1 said:

Glad someone understood it. I only went double brood box as the bees were running out of space in first bb and having only one hive I wanted to be able to manipulate frames if necessary. I also knew I wasn't going to take any honey off for myself. Wish I had now! My big concern was not having enough stores for overwintering but it seems there are plenty. So, as they are now - both boxes with 8 or 9 full frames and insulation inside and in roof they should be ok just left. All I need do I treat for mites in December and hope for the best?

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Bees have been doing this every year for quite along time, The length of the current session is about 8000 years in this country. They dont really need us. If we didnt cut down the trees, destroy the meadows, they wouldnt need us at all.

As usual RAB I bow to your reading skills and insulating skills.....glad you were able to sort the op out single handedly.
I am with you afermo, insulation? What's that!
E

all i would do is put insulation on top and leave alone, the bees have spent so much time sorting the frames out to there way and now you want to start them sorting it out again leave insulation at sides and let the queen and bees settle down to get on with it, but I might be wrong and some one will be along to correct me.

I have sorted out bees in December. If they need sorting, then do it (at an appropriate time, of course). This beekeeping by calender is a load of rubbish, believed by the many who need a set of written rules and are unable to think for themselves.

Agreed, better left on their own late in the season, and not disturbed until spring, but IF they need sorting, they need sorting. Simple as that.

Moving a tiny colony to a polynuc in winter is another example. Considering what is best for the bees is the important decision, which is precluded if the calender system is your bible.

Yes but is it nessary in this case

enrico said:

As usual RAB I bow to your reading skills and insulating skills.....glad you were able to sort the op out single handedly.
I am with you afermo, insulation? What's that!
E

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Thanks for that vote of confidence. For Rab's benefit, the Insulation Rating for my house is C. What is his? Not relevant anyway - merely his annoyance at being found wanting with his advice on winemaking in this forum found bysurfing rather than any practical experience. Pretty sad really!!!

I am surprised you can achieve a C rating with no insulation at all.

Re the wine - sounds like arfermo has a severe case of sour grapes. With a Physics based BSc, top grades in Biology and Chemistry at 'A' level, plus another load of qualifications, I don't need to surf the net for the basic information. It is simple, if you had not noticed.

Not expecting to sell my property, so an energy rating is fairly irrelevant. Around 400mm roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, double or triple glazed windows and doors, plus a few other useful attributes likely makes your C rating fairly mundane.

Shame you don't make your bees' accommodation C rating ?