"domesticating" feral bees

I found out that in the woods about 500 meter from where I keep my bees there is an old rotten beehive with a colony in it. the box is barely holding together and the frames seem propolised to a point that I can not get any out without breaking the lot. I have been told that these colonies (albeit being there for years) are a source of varroa and diseases. I am planning to deal with this next spring.

I am a first year bee keeper so I can not rely on vast experience with bailey change etc...

My plan was to ad a 14x12 box on top (as I do not dare to lift it as I am sure I will be destroying the hive) and after I have made them draw comb to trap the queen on top with queen excluder. when brood in bottom has hatched, I intend to block the original entrance and put in a clearer board to trap bees in top box with new entrance. Take bees away, close entrance for a couple of days to make them forget they lived just next doors and let them enjoy a new home at my apiary. all this with feeding if necessary during the closed of period.

Any fatal flaws in this plan?

First bit sounds fine - conducting a Bailey change - leave queen move into new box, QE until all brood in the bottom emerges then........ just take the bottom BB, frames, floor etc away and put new BB on new floor in the same location, they'll be sorted by the end of the day - job done apart from making a nice little bonfire with the old kit.

It's the moving them that looks a bit sticky to me. I know a few on here would say it's always worked just to put a few twigs over the entrance and they'll re - orientate fine but I'd be happier moving them a couple or three miles (depending on topography) away for a month or so

thenovice said:

I found out that in the woods about 500 meter from where I keep my bees there is an old rotten beehive with a colony in it.

Any fatal flaws in this plan?

Click to expand...

Who owns the beehive?

Why not do a "shook swarm"
Put your new brood box with new frames already in it, on a floor, and simply shake all the bees from your rotted hive into it.
Another brood box or a super without frames makes a useful funnel if placed on top of the brood box.
Queen will surely be shaken into the new box, put a crown board atop the brood, the empty super and a rapid feeder with 1:1 syrup in it.
Afix roof

dig a small fire pit into which you can place the rotten hive/frames etc
apply dry newspaper and a match.

You can return the following day to collect bees, which now will be happily drawing out new comb, and the queen preparing to lay into it!

If moving, do remember the 3 mile rule.
I would also give a good controversial gassing with OA to be sure!
The bees would be from the local population, occupying what had become a feral site, a good place to put a bait hive next season?

( Catherine Thompson's PhD paper)

Good luck

James

sussexbaker said:

Who owns the beehive?

Click to expand...

Good point
Take the bees, but leave the hive after giving a a good douse with petrol and Jeys fluid!

James

James Templer said:

Good point
Take the bees, but leave the hive after giving a a good douse with petrol and Jeys fluid!

James

Click to expand...

If someone owns the beehive then they own those bees......

sussexbaker said:

If someone owns the beehive then they own those bees......

Click to expand...

But if they swarm ?

A call to you bee inspector for advice

What if the abandoned colony is a source of EFB or AFB?

What if they were living in a feral way within a hollow tree?

500 m would be too close for comfort for some.

I think it would be wise to do something about them

James

James Templer said:

But if they swarm ?

A call to you bee inspector for advice

What if the abandoned colony is a source of EFB or AFB?

What if they were living in a feral way within a hollow tree?

500 m would be too close for comfort for some.

I think it would be wise to do something about them

James

Click to expand...

If they swarm then you can collect them (I believe that a swarm only belongs to a bee keeper whilst he maintains them in sight but that could be urban legend). In a hollow tree then they're wild and you can fill your boots (whether you should or not is a different debate).

EFB or AFB are valid concerns, but just because a hive has been left untreated for years it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a hive (pardon the pun) of diseases. Talking to the Bee Inspector is probably a good idea, however bees don't need treatment and feeding to survive. Some of them, and they're really the ones we want to be raising, can look after themselves rather well.

sussexbaker said:

Who owns the beehive?

Click to expand...

That is a good question! I should figure that one out before I nick the bees .

I will try to figure out who owns the wood and ask for permission to deal with the issue... bit of honey will smoothen the transaction I am sure...

fact is, if I don't deal with them, the box will be a goner in 2 years tops and the owner will have no bees and no hive. At the moment the only thing those bees do is incubate nasties and rob my colonies...

thenovice said:

That is a good question! I should figure that one out before I nick the bees .

I will try to figure out who owns the wood and ask for permission to deal with the issue... bit of honey will smoothen the transaction I am sure...

fact is, if I don't deal with them, the box will be a goner in 2 years tops and the owner will have no bees and no hive. At the moment the only thing those bees do is incubate nasties and rob my colonies...

Click to expand...

Yes, you're probably right about their chances of survival. It'd be interesting to know how long that colony has been going for though.

thenovice said:

I found out that in the woods about 500 meter from where I keep my bees there is an old rotten beehive with a colony in it. the box is barely holding together and the frames seem propolised to a point that I can not get any out without breaking the lot. I have been told that these colonies (albeit being there for years) are a source of varroa and diseases. I am planning to deal with this next spring.

I am a first year bee keeper so I can not rely on vast experience with bailey change etc...

My plan was to ad a 14x12 box on top (as I do not dare to lift it as I am sure I will be destroying the hive) and after I have made them draw comb to trap the queen on top with queen excluder. when brood in bottom has hatched, I intend to block the original entrance and put in a clearer board to trap bees in top box with new entrance. Take bees away, close entrance for a couple of days to make them forget they lived just next doors and let them enjoy a new home at my apiary. all this with feeding if necessary during the closed of period.

Any fatal flaws in this plan?

Click to expand...

Not always guaranteed that the rotten box will support another.
Have plenty kit (for options) and be prepared for everything to fall to pieces - leaving you to attach bits of comb to empty frames. And having the odd stores frame of your own to contribute would probably be very helpful, come Spring.
However, no need to plan any details yet.

Especially as you haven't established ownership or even approached the landowner yet.

But, once you are officially 'involved' … For the winter, the best thing would be to try and ensure that their hive is weathertight (rain/snow proof).
A tarpaulin over the top would probably help, but Tyvek roofing membrane (waterproof but moisture/vapour permeable) should be much better.

thenovice said:

…

fact is, if I don't deal with them, the box will be a goner in 2 years tops and the owner will have no bees and no hive. At the moment the only thing those bees do is incubate nasties and rob my colonies...

Click to expand...

Much more likely that healthy (strong colony) bees would rob unhealthy (weak colony) bees …

First thing is you need permission from the landowner to do pretty much anything to the hive. Second is, although it looks abandoned, they had an owner originally who needs to be contacted, or at least some effort made to contact them.

As to the disease question, if they have survived many years, they can't be that diseased. Most disease outbreaks have a traceable route from other colonies via beekeepers, if these have no contact they are much less likely to have serious disease levels. They may have mites, almost certainly will, but if the colony is surviving they are coping with the level they have and may even have lower virus loads than average. If there is a problem, it's likely to be when the colony dies out and could leave disease to be picked up by new swarms moving in. That could be the time to block the entrance pending disposal. All assuming you have permission first.

sussexbaker said:

EFB or AFB are valid concerns, but just because a hive has been left untreated for years it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a hive (pardon the pun) of diseases. Talking to the Bee Inspector is probably a good idea, however bees don't need treatment and feeding to survive. Some of them, and they're really the ones we want to be raising, can look after themselves rather well.

Click to expand...

Apparently the local outbreak of EFB (Or AFB.. I cannot recall).. was discovered in two abandoned hives. "You did not need to look at individual cells to see it" was what the Bee Inspector said to me when she visited..

James Templer said:

Why not do a "shook swarm"
Put your new brood box with new frames already in it, on a floor, and simply shake all the bees from your rotted hive into it.
James

Click to expand...

Most beeks would put a temporary queen excluder below the new bb to prevent the colony absconding.

Amari said:

Most beeks would put a temporary queen excluder below the new bb to prevent the colony absconding.

Click to expand...

Good advice
I must admit that I have lost a few "swarms" in the past by forgetting the QU to prevent absconding!


Seems to be a gremlin lurking in this old PC, bought at an auction in Plymouth along with some used beekeeping equipment.


James

In a shook swarm burning live brood and emerging bees is a bit brutal and in my opinion shows lack of empathy. Far better to put in bin bag and pop into the freezer for 24 hrs to kill the contents before burning.

Also you can OA the shook swarm, and then insert either a frame of uncapped brood or a drawn comb in the centre inbetween the undrawn frames. That way that frame should be capped first with hopefully all remaining varroa in it, then remove. With a bit of luck they will then be varroa free.

I think bbka do a download leaflet about "abandoned hives" .
Just checked and searching for abandoned hive leaflet finds it

Being a beginner I would ask your SBI to check it out first for disease, he might also know who it belongs to, if it hasn't been treated for varroa then shake the bees into a new hive and oxalic acid might be in order. One possible reason why they have been abandoned is the temperament of the bees.

Defo get the bees once you have permission etc sorted. I really believe that freal bees are very important to the whole beekeeping community as they can be a real valuable source of good healthy and varroa \ disease resistant bees. Remember they are surviving without mans involvement, closer to Darwin's survival of the fittest. Go for it - they just might be the modern holy grail of hygienic bees who get rid of all varroa !!!