TBH Frames?

Not exactly conventional for TBH’s but going to give these frames a try in a couple of hives as it should reduce or even stop the brace comb to the side walls of the hive and they hate it when you have to cut through it.

Your ingenuity knows no bounds, Tom.
How's my small scale WBC coming along?

Don't let thornes see them unless you have a patent. JBM might be interested in a few

Erichalfbee said:

Your ingenuity knows no bounds, Tom.
How's my small scale WBC coming along?

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Will hope to be making a few soon after an observation hive so should have enough offcuts for a nice apiary.

REDWOOD said:

Don't let thornes see them unless you have a patent. JBM might be interested in a few

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They are welcome to start making them. It’s an advantage being a joiner as from time to time when machining something you get rather nice convenient off cuts that makes think that could be useful.

Tom Bick said:

Not exactly conventional for TBH’s but going to give these frames a try in a couple of hives as it should reduce or even stop the brace comb to the side walls of the hive and they hate it when you have to cut through it.

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Very nice ...if I had had your carpentry skills I would now be the owner of a Kenyan Top Bar Framed Hive ... but I couldn't handle the trigonometry or the woodwork skills ... so started my journey towards a Long Deep Hive !!

Hope they work for you ...

Very neat.
I'm still thinking of ways to get the bees to draw comb from such a top bar. Latest thought would be drill holes through and insert bits of kebab skewer.

pargyle said:

Very nice ...if I had had your carpentry skills I would now be the owner of a Kenyan Top Bar Framed Hive ... but I couldn't handle the trigonometry or the woodwork skills ... so started my journey towards a Long Deep Hive !!

Hope they work for you ...

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Surprisingly easy with a small table saw and I would say easier than regular frames. The assembly perhaps a bit fiddly without an air nailer.

Tom Bick said:

Surprisingly easy with a small table saw and I would say easier than regular frames. The assembly perhaps a bit fiddly without an air nailer.

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So you worked out the angle and then tilted your table saw to do the slots for the tops of the side bars to go in ? ... Clever ... I was trying to do traditional 'cut outs' in the top bars as per 'conventional' frames - got into a right mess - couldn't get two the same and the top bars kept splitting ..

That's when my Kenyan TBH became a not-National sized Tanzanian TBH with home made --------size frames that fitted the box I'd made - but then I discovered bee space and realised 14 x 12 was a better size ... so it eventually became a 14x12 Long Deep Hive ...Nothing like getting into beekeeping the hard way !! Cheap but time consuming

My path is not recommended ...

Advice for those thinking of embarking on a build/design your own hive project *(Not you Tom - you've got it sown up I reckon) .....

THINK STANDARD SIZES AND BEE SPACE before you cut a piece of wood !

Or, if you can afford it .... buy one ready made !

Each to his own of course and best of luck with it. So I suppose its best described as a trapezoidal shaped non standard size hive with non standard trapezoidal shaped frames, which can not by definition be a TBH. Sorry, but for me this deviates completely away from the KISS principle for which TBH’s are best known for. It just seems to me you will get the worst of both worlds and not the best. Looks nice though.

They certainly look the part.
Be sure to let us know what the bees think of them!

I use Tanzanian style top bar hives that I make to take standard frame sizes. The one Kenyan TBH I started with was soon converted to take standard frames.

I still have a few simple top bars in amongst the frames but the bees seem to mirror the shape of the adjacent frames and very rarely make any attachments to the sides.

Teebeeaitch said:

Each to his own of course and best of luck with it. So I suppose its best described as a trapezoidal shaped non standard size hive with non standard trapezoidal shaped frames, which can not by definition be a TBH. Sorry, but for me this deviates completely away from the KISS principle for which TBH’s are best known for. It just seems to me you will get the worst of both worlds and not the best. Looks nice though.

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I like that trapezoidal hive the worst of both worlds dint know about that it's hard to think of what is the worst of either the TBH or the trapezoidal hive, but a few years ago I decided to take what I liked about the more natural beekeeping philosophy and merge it with my framed hives and started to go foundationless I think it's the best of both worlds and this is just an experiment by a joiner with a couple of hours and idle hands with some rather tempting offcuts talking to him. One thing I do know and you will agree is that the whole concept around non standard hives and the TBH is one as they are generally not all the same it allows for experimentation.

pargyle said:

So you worked out the angle and then tilted your table saw to do the slots for the tops of the side bars to go in ? ... Clever ..

!

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Yes basically that's it but it's the block at the bottom that's the key you need to pin and glue that first. Once pushed into the top rail the angle holds the sides in place and they won't fall out without a bit of pressure but obviously a bit of glue and a few pins a final check to see everything is in line and job done

Tom Bick said:

Yes basically that's it but it's the block at the bottom that's the key you need to pin and glue that first. Once pushed into the top rail the angle holds the sides in place and they won't fall out without a bit of pressure but obviously a bit of glue and a few pins a final check to see everything is in line and job done

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I can feel a highly insulated Kenyan Top Bar hive with frames coming along ... still got a few pallets and some poly sheets left in storage ... I agree with TeeBeeAitch that it may not be in the 'True' spirit of top bar beekeeping but it's not that far off in my book ...

I think positively about such things ... perhaps you will get the BEST of both worlds rather than the worst ?

Teebeeaitch said:

I suppose its best described as a trapezoidal shaped non standard size hive with non standard trapezoidal shaped frames, which can not by definition be a TBH.

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The tops of Tom's frames are 35 mm wide and they are longer than the width of the hive, so... they are top bars, because they rest on the side walls of the hive and they form the "roof" of the nest when pressed together. What's more, nothing in Tom's innovation will affect the *method* of beekeeping that is used in this type of hive.

For me this deviates completely away from the KISS principle for which TBH’s are best known for.

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If you look at some of the original, early designs for TBHs you'll notice that they're anything but KISSey -- they had fairly precise measurements in those days. It is only when the TBH became a fad in the Western world that the hive designs were simplified.

And the sad fact is that a hive design that works well in one part of the world may fail in another part of the world, due to a difference climate and different types of bees. It is only logical that beekeepers who fall in love with an exotic hive design will try to adjust it for local conditions.

And while Tom's frames may look fancy, they are very, very simple to make by anyone with a tilting table saw. Even if you only have a tile saw, you'll be able to cut that angle by using a jig.

By all means go for it Phill its not that difficult, but see if you can get hold of some 22 or even 25mm timber for the main box and keep the insulation for any kind of roof you will construct. My roof insulation fits just above the bars with approx one bee space with the original intention not to squash any bees when placing the roof. Also design one so it sits onto the legs or a stand and the legs are not bolted to it as its a pain when you have to move it, the bolts are simpler but in the long run I doubt it.

End or central entrances its up to you, in the UK it seems central is the norm but the US its the end.

If I was built one again, I think I would go with solid floor and use my time to build a spare hive body so I could transfer over the combs to a nice clean box each year and clean all the bits of brace comb that builds up over the year and starts to become a pain, hence the frames. One could be a simple summer house and transfer back to a nice passive eco winter home. I only check my tray in the early spring and most of the time I leave it in the hive, but have to clean it on every visit. The tray does give me a good indication on how the hive is doing during the winter, also one of those side observation panels are rather nice. Another advantage I guess to the tray is by removing it at this time of year it may slow them down a bit as they need it.


I fitted two of the frames yesterday, would have fitted more, but they have decided to raise swarm cells so for now I doubt much comb building. Going back on Saturday to AS them into a 14x12 box with standard frames or just split them and hope to stop the split from the continuing swarm mode. Ha Ho

Got to say, I really fancy the idea!

Went back yesterday and AS the TBH into this 14×12 brood box with standard frames one fully drawn and the rest foundationless. Found the queen placed her and the comb she was on into the bb after removing a couple of QC's. It's handy having the top bars the same length as national top bars. A bit of moving about of hives and confusion as the bees returning found the hive has completely changed shape, I suspect some of the flyers would have worked out that the TBH was now seven feet away and returned to it but that's not a great worry as plenty were entering the new hive.

In five days time I will create a three comb split with nice QC to one side of the TBH and have the bees use one of the rear entrances or remove a larger split to a nuc. This will I hope be a spare queen. In the remaining hive I will remove all QC's and introduce a comb of eggs from another TBH that I am looking after for someone and the bees from that hive are better behaved than my lot. Although my lot are not that bad its just that I get a couple banning the veil and think it’s best if they don’t re-queen this time other than the spare.

I had a peep at the two frames I placed in the TBH and one had a nice piece of comb that looked plumb central (for now) in the frame so I am happy with that. Although having inspected a couple of times the combs are now rather easy to remove so right now it's 50 50

They look really good Tom .... should work fine I would think.

Bill Bielby reckoned that his catenary hive (where the bees were allowed/encouraged to build comb in the same catenary shape as they do in the wild) produced some of his best results in terms of both honey production and bee characteristics. Only problem with the hive was the complexity of construction of both the box and the frames ...