other beekeepers dead outs

jenkinsbrynmair said:

And what difference would a bit of paper do? it seems that thereare loads of people around with bundles of little bits of paper but it's obvious from some of the comments on here that they still don't have a scooby about beekeeping.

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It is true that Driving Tests and Licenses don't prevent ALL road accidents, but my impression is that there would be more accidents if the test (and the resulting bit of paper) was abolished.
The Basic is pretty bloody basic, but even so, one is unlikely to pass without having been exposed to some form of training (beyond YouTube). And that training should reduce the losses that would be suffered by bees in the hands of the untrained.

I'm not suggesting that The Basic is ideal, but (lacking any alternatives) it is the benchmark that ALL new beekeepers should aspire to passing quickly - and my feeling is that Associations should 'encourage' that aspiration with both carrot and (gentle) stick.

the problem is how many trainers will be advising the sort of actions that have caused these dead outs?
remember it's the BBKA who set the basic - complimentary matchsticks with your application.

Nice looking last you have there - too good to be left out in all weathers.

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People often tell me they're collectable but there's a place in Horncastle where he has a bloody big pile of them.

itma said:

it is the benchmark that ALL new beekeepers should aspire to passing quickly - and my feeling is that Associations should 'encourage' that aspiration with both carrot and (gentle) stick.

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That's your opinion - from what I've seen of many of the BBKA paper holders it's not worth the paper it's printed on. We don't insist that any of our association members take the basic (although I'd help any who want to) and it's a sad sight to see all these people who obsess more about their modules than the bees themselves.
Let them keep taking their little exams if that pleases them and makes them feel more important - I'll just carry on keeping bees.

Dishmop said:

Both these have overwintered just as you see them here.
Piece of Kingspan and ply on the brood box.

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Why is the Kingspan under the hives?

Amari said:

Why is the Kingspan under the hives?

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Is the picture upside down?

jenkinsbrynmair said:

That's your opinion - from what I've seen of many of the BBKA paper holders it's not worth the paper it's printed on. We don't insist that any of our association members take the basic (although I'd help any who want to) and it's a sad sight to see all these people who obsess more about their modules than the bees themselves.
Let them keep taking their little exams if that pleases them and makes them feel more important - I'll just carry on keeping bees.

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You chopped off the important bit!

The full sentence reads

I'm not suggesting that The Basic is ideal, but (lacking any alternatives) it is the benchmark that ALL new beekeepers should aspire to passing quickly - and my feeling is that Associations should 'encourage' that aspiration with both carrot and (gentle) stick.

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I think it is important that all new beekeepers should get some worthwhile training and be practically assessed to confirm that a decent amount has sunk in.
Yes, the BBKA 'Basic' is a very low-hanging fruit, but, absent any alternative, it is the best (the only) option out there to fulfil the goal of standardised practical assessment after 'get-started' training.
And some do manage to fail even this very simple test. IMHO, the test should be looking for a little more - even if that did mean the failure rate was higher. But hey, better than nothing.
And I'm certainly not suggesting that The Basic should mark the endpoint of training ...

itma said:

This is a useful temporary bodge when you run out of hives during the swarming season, but no way to go into winter.




I believe the problem with the "ivy honey" hives wasn't being said to be the Ivy - rather that the hives were fully ventilated (yes, matchsticks!), not level, and the cluster was so cold that it was unable to migrate to where the plentiful ivy stores were, just a few frames away.



Apart from the "I treat for varroa only with Icing Sugar, and then only if necessary" case, I think that this little list covers most of the common winter-failing stupidities.
It ain't rocket science, but sadly that doesn't mean that one can reliably get away with daftness.

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itma, yes you have commented as usual with an itelligent and precise reply to my post

the QEs left on is really frustrating as it was well meaning beginners who did not want to extract honey and wanted the bees to keep the honey for them selves ( getting more and more common)

we stressed taking off the QE after you extracted the honey from the supers but forgot to say take off the QE if you are leaving them on!!!

Ivy mementioned in my first postt, not meant to say anything wrong with ivy, just that it was full of ivy, ie plenty for them to eat, it was the cold and uneven hive stand, they worked their way up into a top corner an starved

Amari said:

Why is the Kingspan under the hives?

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Its not under the hives. Its two little pieces in front of the hives as landing boards which also stop the grass growing, and if it was underneath it would help keeping the hives warmer.
And the hives are on paving stones.

Erichalfbee said:

Is the picture upside down?

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only if my grass is growing in a funny place

Amari said:

Why is the Kingspan under the hives?

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Is that my nuc I see before me?

Hebeegeebee said:

Is that my nuc I see before me?

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one never knows, but if it isnt its a copy.
In fact so good that even you arent sure..

drstitson said:

the problem is how many trainers will be advising the sort of actions that have caused these dead outs?

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Hopefully these will be lucky escapes, even with the current night frosts:-

• Shook swarm onto foundation a fortnight ago, beekeeper concerned bees not taking syrup.
• Bailey frame change started a fortnight ago, ditto not taking syrup.
• 3 frame colony put into brood and a half and fed like crazy in the autumn - to make sure they didn't starve. Thick carpet of dead bees two weeks ago, but colony alive.

MuswellMetro said:

ex beginners and members [...] their problems and dead outs have been quite high

i have seen the following [.. ..]

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So far only two in my immediate area. It's been a mild winter here, although it has been quite damp and spring is reluctant to arrive:-

• Dead colony with frames of foundation each side of the brood nest, expecting them to be drawn from September onwards. Full frames of stores outside the foundation. Dead of isolation starvation.
  
• "suspected nosema" - small dead colony with signs of dysentery throughout the inside of the hive, streaks on all frames and all woodwork. Hive on low stand on wet ground. Entrance reduced with foam, feeder board hole taped closed, varroa tray taped in place. Frames of partially consumed stores covered in thick mould. Brood dead and mildewed. Dead bees mouldy. - What do you think killed these bees?

Reading this, I think the important point is: 'Do people learn from these errors?'

If they do then, although sad, they are important learning opportunities.

Setting them as 'who/what dunnits' in a training situation would be helpful in getting learners to 'think'. Also good as discussion points to aid learning. (Wish there were some photos.) That last case of BeeJayBee's sounds like it could have benefitted from matchsticks!

As for compulsory exams: many people have a fear and hatred of exams from their time at school. I would hate to see potentially good bee keepers put off by the thought of compulsory exams while 'exam monkeys' are allowed to keep bees with no real understanding.

What do you think killed these bees?

Not what. More like Who?

The beekeeper, if that is a legitimate description.

oliver90owner said:

Not what. More like Who?

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Making it personal, the who rather than the what, is exactly what is likely to prevent the required open and honest analysis. Folk will feel embarrassed, stigmatised and won't come forward.

It would be good to have local associations to hold sessions around this time of year, specifically investigating winter deaths. Folk should be encouraged to come forward, discuss their loses and the preceding management.

jd101k2000 said:

I would hate to see potentially good bee keepers put off by the thought of compulsory exams while 'exam monkeys' are allowed to keep bees with no real understanding.

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Yep - you can pass exams by learning the answers without needing to understand why the answer is the answer. I still feel most of the teaching literature is too heavy on this approach and jump straight in to e.g. What to do if you see swarm cells rather than truly helping people to understand why the swarm cells are present. You need to start with understanding bee behaviour. When I started a few seasons back I took the former approach but have quickly learned that life is madeuch easier if you understand bees first - then how to keep them is self explanatory. Doing it the other way round is destined to fail (although learning by mistakes is very effective way of learning!)

clv101 said:

Making it personal, the who rather than the what, is exactly what is likely to prevent the required open and honest analysis. Folk will feel embarrassed, stigmatised and won't come forward.

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which is why although i have photos of the dead outs, i have not posted them on here because friends of the beekeeper could idenitfy the beekepers who made the errors

most were trying to do the best for their bees but did not think it through

most were trying to do the best for their bees but did not think it through

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which sadly applies to most things nowadays.