Worst winter ever

Hivemaker. said:

Varroa mites are not insects.

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Ha correct ! too many legs for that you know what I mean: in terms of body composition materials they are similar

JEP said:

Not wishing to sound too harsh but I will stick with my original diagnosis of inadequate varroa control. If I may quote one of your earlier posts from a few years ago:-

"Firstly i would like to thank everyone for their help and opinions.

Because everyone bee keeps differently and there is no set rule on what is right and what is wrong, and the only one who knows best are the bees. I think is it wrong for people to say that you should never do this or never to that?

The guy who taught me beekeeping has used sugar dusting for years and we both think it is a nicer way of treating the bees then using chemicals. He has been a honey farmer for years and has over three hundred hives. He has not seen any evidence of lack of emerging brood or any other side effects. I also know a beekeeper who dusts his bees with dust from the roads and paths?

(The way I look at it is I would not like having chemicals put in my house or put all over me).

I have two hives and two nuc's on the go and the varroa count is very, very low.
All I am saying is this is what works for my bees."


I rest my case.

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This is extraordinary; what on earth equips you to come to such a judgement? Pulling in further "evidence" of an earlier post? Responding in this fashion is not helpful.

Erichalfbee said:

Yes, no point in sampling unless symptoms suggest it.

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No point doing anything to bees unless you have to.
If you don't have a reason then why disturb them ?
I've gone past the honeymoon period where I can't wait to mess around with them .

sunhivebee said:

This is extraordinary; what on earth equips you to come to such a judgement?

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ian wallace said:

Hi guys can anyone help
I've had the worst winter ever
I had 18 hives in total
Yesterday I looked at the bees and I only had two hives in the site with 11 hives
3 hives in the site with 6 on
And the single hive was ok

I found that all of the hives were very heavy full of stores
Some hives had very little dead bees in them all on the frames
Some hives had a floor full of bees

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Plenty of data there i would surmise

Originally Posted by JEP
Not wishing to sound too harsh but I will stick with my original diagnosis of inadequate varroa control.

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based on what?

Dishmop said:

based on what?

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Well clearly something has killed this guys bees, they didn't starve and colonies don't just spontaneously die - there is always a cause for a colony death even if you are unable to work out what that cause is. You suggested that it could be spray related, now to me this seems highly improbable when the bees died on two separate sites in the middle of winter when no forage crops are in flower that could possibly be sprayed.

In the words of Wikipedia "Varroa mites are recognised as the biggest pest to honeybees worldwide, and are believed to be the single largest contributing factor in the modern-day decline of honeybees"

Given the above and the fact that the OP has as far as we know only been treating varroa with icing sugar I fail to understand why you are finding it such a stretch of the imagination that inadequate varroa control could be responsible for the colony deaths.

Especially as the OP won't even discuss what could have happened unless we promise not to mention varroa does not even attempt to treat (sorry, don't consider involving them in a cake decorating exercise treatment) and states categorically it's not varroa without giving any kind of hypothesis or reason why he believes this

Factually you are correct as we can't examine the bees. But no treatment (bar icing sugar, which is no treatment) = Varroa not being controlled. What do you think is the common denominator that most likely caused the death of so many colonies?
And perhaps in the same way if you recover from cancer having being treated with anti-cancer drugs, you have no means of knowing if you would have recovered without using those drugs.
Nah youre probably right, they died because he didn't say happy new year to them!
Although mine are all alive despite thier drugs and no seasons greetings.

[

My friend has lost over 50% and they were treated with apiguard and OA drizzled on them. Some boxes empty and others with dead bees in.
No idea why they were all ok at christmas.

Nige.Coll said:

Some boxes empty

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As in nothing in them at all! Not even dead carcasses? Cos if nothing there then something must have 'et em or removed them. Bees do not simply vanish without cause.
Unless HM is on the right track with with alien bee-ings going on.

Thymallus said:

As in nothing in them at all! Not even dead carcasses? Cos if nothing there then something must have 'et em or removed them. Bees do not simply vanish without cause.
Unless HM is on the right track with with alien bee-ings going on.

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yes empty no bodies nowt.
He suspects they has absconded but isn't sure.
All seemed fine when OA was used at christmas.
A couple were Q- rest were complete dead outs or empty.

Nige.Coll said:

yes empty no bodies nowt.
He suspects they has absconded but isn't sure.
All seemed fine when OA was used at christmas.
A couple were Q- rest were complete dead outs or empty.

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My obs hive bees went through a period of a few days in January when they wanted to go fly about for some reason.. and most didnt come back. Many found dead on window sill, on the wall and in the tube. The area they now cover is about the size of a dinner plate. There are none on the other side and I believe there are none between the frames. (4 Frames. 2 up 2 down)
They have been out a few times in the last week but stupidly late in the day when starting to cool off by about 2°
With a normal hive you would be able to see the bees going out, but would you notice them not coming back?

Varroa not being controlled. What do you think is the common denominator that most likely caused the death of so many colonies?

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Thats on the assumption that varroa was present.

Dishmop said:

Thats on the assumption that varroa was present.

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Now I know you are taking the michael....go stand in the naughty corner!

I'd never say that if you don't bees for varroa they'd die - but if you don't take effective action they could seriously compromise the colony.
But examining the evidence put before us I would say there's a distinct probability that a high varroa load contributed to the collapse of those colonies.
as for there being no varroa in them hives well, maybe so as:
Show me a hive with no varroa and I'll show you an empty hive with no bees
so yes, there will now be no varroa in those deadouts (apart from dead varroa) but fat chance of there being no varroa in the surviving colonies

What is interesting is that a number of people who are reporting dead hives are also reporting that the colonies were treated ... in some cases with Autumnn thymol and OA trickling in winter. If these colonies are dying as a result of varroa (as seems to be the overriding concensus) then ... why isn't treatment working ? Or is is that the treatment is actually weakening the bees and making them more susceptible to the vectored diseases carried by varroa .. and those such as Nosema that are not carried by varroa.

I'm on my third year of not treating ... and I have three healthy thriving colonies that have come through winter (one of them was a much smaller and weaker colony and I did have fears that they would not make it). There are other factors in my beekeeping regime that may affect the health of my bees .. highly insulated hives, draught free conditions, foundationless comb, the fact that they overwinter on their own honey.

I am not saying that my hives do not have some varroa in them but it does seem that it is at a manageable level. Perhaps I'm just lucky ... or perhaps some people are just treating too much ? I know several beekeepers who have not been treating their bees for a number of years and their winter losses are certainly no more (and in some cases are less) than people who are using the conventional 'double'.

Any idea Pargyle what your bees were feeding on last year especially prior to winter?

pargyle said:

What is interesting is that a number of people who are reporting dead hives are also reporting that the colonies were treated ... in some cases with Autumnn thymol and OA trickling in winter. If these colonies are dying as a result of varroa (as seems to be the overriding concensus) then ... why isn't treatment working ? .

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- Treatment has been done too late when mites have allready violated winter brood.

- Treatment depends on weathers and on presence of brood and so on.

- Treatment is not in practice 98,6% . It is perhaps 80% and leave too much living mites to next spring.

- When level of mite numbers rise, normal treatment does not work enough.

pargyle said:

Or is is that the treatment is actually weakening the bees and making them more susceptible to the vectored diseases carried by varroa .. .
.

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I have not met research that varroa treatment add diseases.

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How varroa makes a hive empty

It has happened to me many times and I have told it in this forum many times.

- The Basic is, that only those bees are able to overwinter which have not feeded larvae.

- When I have very big hive, it may have a big mite load.
- In late summer brooding becomes smaller, and more mites go into fewer brood. Finally almost all brood are contaminated with mites.

You may see, that brood will be dead as a heep on the bottom board. On landing board perhaps you do not see it because birds may pick up bodies all the time.

- Then result is that most of winter bees have died as brood and the rest are in bad condition. Summer bees keep the hive clean.
- When summer bees and those violated bees die, hive is very empty.

Normal sign is that there are unemerged brood in brood combs.

pargyle said:

I am not saying that my hives do not have some varroa in them but it does seem that it is at a manageable level. .

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With 3 hives you cannot make any science or general rules. There are guys who have hundreds of hives and they can control theirs hives dead rate. But even in good cases varroa kills hives and make some year big losses.

But it is fact too that when we go towards warmer climates, and there is no brood brake in beehives, varroa treatment becomes more difficult.

Modern treatment stuffs have been used about 15 years. There are well known facts what happens in beehives. You do not need to invent them.



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It is about time some people grew up, open their minds a little and realise the term 'chemicals' is not inherently bad. Life, the planet and everything is made up of chemicals. Some are good, some are bad and some will provide you with healthy colonies that are capable of surviving winter.