Combining colonies

idg · May 31, 2015

Do colonies that are to be combined need to be close to each other? I have 2 hives that have been AS'd. For some reason I moved the brood halves of the AS about 25 feet from queen halves. I would like to recombine but feel I need to wait for good laying patterns in each half to decide which queen to keep. Should I be working the hives back closer together?
My next question is if my queen half has supers on in the original location, where does the brood half go when combining? Where should the paper be?

oliver90owner · May 31, 2015

Clearly better (and easier) if close together.

Simple answer is the paper always goes between the two parts being united.

Read up on the Pagden method. The best most tried and tested method.

drex · May 31, 2015

Yes you need to move one to be next to the other. Remember 3feet 3 miles "rule". It can be more than 3 feet if moving a hive straight backwards.( I am happy with 6)
I do not worry which half goes on top of which.
Keep the stacks in the order they are. Put paper on top of one stack, then QX, lift on next stack. Make sure a few holes pricked into paper first. Rearrange boxes after a day or two.

Erichalfbee · May 31, 2015

I have never bothered to put hives near each other.
The reunite I am doing this week has the two boxes about 10 feet apart.
I do, however, have colonies in between so that might make a difference.

idg · May 31, 2015

drex said:
Yes you need to move one to be next to the other. Remember 3feet 3 miles "rule". It can be more than 3 feet if moving a hive straight backwards.( I am happy with 6)
I do not worry which half goes on top of which.
Keep the stacks in the order they are. Put paper on top of one stack, then QX, lift on next stack. Make sure a few holes pricked into paper first. Rearrange boxes after a day or two.

So on original site I would have original queen half then supers, then paper then brood half? Why do I need the QE?

idg · May 31, 2015

idg said:
So on original site I would have original queen half then supers, then paper then brood half? Why do I need the QE?[/quote

idg · May 31, 2015

idg said:
So on original site I would have original queen half then supers, then paper then brood half? Why do I need the QE?

Think I have just answered my own question. QE is needed if queen is in brood half above supers right?

If queen in bottom box is dispatched, and new queen in brood half is placed above supers, will the bottom box not want to create QC's?

Erichalfbee · May 31, 2015

You don't NEED the QX but it serves two useful purposes. It keeps your newspaper from blowing away when you put the top box/s on and it makes the queen easier to find when you amalgamate the frames a few days later.
What I do is Q+ colony, newspaper, QX, Q- colony.

will the bottom box not want to create QC's?

I always thought it might if there is a super or two between so I clear these first.

oliver90owner · May 31, 2015

will the bottom box not want to create QC's?

They might, but wouldn't be able to if made hopelessly Q-. Simple, really.

idg · May 31, 2015

oliver90owner said:
will the bottom box not want to create QC's?

They might, but wouldn't be able to if made hopelessly Q-. Simple, really.

Is time the factor then? Do I need to dispatch one of the queens then wait for their attempts to raise QC's, take those down then unite? I'm missing something here. I have two halves of a hive, both with queens that I want to put back together. It sounds like it should be simple!

idg · May 31, 2015

Erichalfbee said:
You don't NEED the QX but it serves two useful purposes. It keeps your newspaper from blowing away when you put the top box/s on and it makes the queen easier to find when you amalgamate the frames a few days later.
What I do is Q+ colony, newspaper, QX, Q- colony.

will the bottom box not want to create QC's?

I always thought it might if there is a super or two between so I clear these first.

Sorry Erica, do you mean clear them off the hive, or clear them of bees and place on top (ie if empty there will be no fighting)

Erichalfbee · May 31, 2015

Q+ box

Empty super of bees
Clear bees, either brush in or use a clearer board.
Put super aside.
Place newspaper and QX then put crown board and roof on.

Go to other box.
Remove queen. Loosen brood box from floor.

Go back in the evening
Take roof and crown board off Q+ lift Q- hive off floor and put on top of Q+.
I replace the super when I am amalgamating the frames in three days or so.

Dan Job · Jun 1, 2015

Interesting thread, which I would describe as preparation of colonies to combine and organisation of the combined colony.
But could someone suggest how to overcome a problem I forsee. For my AS's I've used split boards, turning them through 90deg. If I simply recombine the two brood boxes back to one entrance in original location won't I end up with a bunch of bees clustered on the outside where the top box entrance was??

Cheers Dan.

Jimmys Mum · Jun 1, 2015

I have the same situation Dan, with three supers between the two brood box entrances. Here's hoping somebody else has the answer!

Dan Job · Jun 1, 2015

One thing I've considered is moving the whole lot to a second apiary and combining at the same time but this is a momentous task with the three double stacked hives I have all on 14x12's. Problem with this my second out apiary is my allotment which I'm not sure I trust to leave ££££ of bees and kit. Plus I really want them to remain where they are.

Dan Job · Jun 1, 2015

Next yr if I do Wally Shaws MS II I'll be leaving the entrances in the same direction and doing it in the morning on a sunny day. Or maybe turning 90 or 180 only for a day or two until the fliers have left the Q+ Side, so it's prepped ready for combining.

bpmurray · Jun 1, 2015

What if I want to combine a Q+ nuc & a Q- broodbox? Do I put the nuc frames into a BB, and place it above the Q- colony? Or do I shuffle them around, placing the Q+ nuc/BB on the floor and the Q- on top? The Q- hive is a bit aggressive at the moment, presumably because of being Q-, so I'd prefer not to disturb them too much, and let the new Q put manners on them.

Erichalfbee · Jun 2, 2015

I prefer putting the Q+ box on the floor but others do it the other way and I really don't think it matters much.
Pop the nuc into a dummied full size hive and unite on top.

itma · Jun 2, 2015

bpmurray said:
What if I want to combine a Q+ nuc & a Q- broodbox? Do I put the nuc frames into a BB, and place it above the Q- colony? Or do I shuffle them around, placing the Q+ nuc/BB on the floor and the Q- on top? The Q- hive is a bit aggressive at the moment, presumably because of being Q-, so I'd prefer not to disturb them too much, and let the new Q put manners on them.

It shouldn't matter whether Q+ or Q- goes on top.

What does matter is that the colony that stays in place is on the bottom - with its normal entrance. Those needing to reorient have to go through the newspaper and the other colony to get out (after that, they generally get the idea that something has changed).

bpmurray · Jun 2, 2015

itma said:
What does matter is that the colony that stays in place is on the bottom - with its normal entrance. Those needing to reorient have to go through the newspaper and the other colony to get out (after that, they generally get the idea that something has changed).

Thank you - that was the piece of the puzzle that was missing!

Combining colonies

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