Open mesh floors in the winter

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colinrelf

New Bee
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
9
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1
Location
uk
Hive Type
Langstroth
Number of Hives
20
I noticed the other year that a couple of my colonies were dropping lots of dead bees, week after week. To start with I thought the worse but then realised that they were suffering from the cold. I replaced the varroa board and this helped keep the heat in and the bees alive. One observation thou was condensation on the plastic board. This was rectified by drilling a few holes to allow air to pass through.
 
Have done same myself as of Saturday last week on 4 colonies , ply floors fully inserted.... Has to make sense given cold temps and at the same time strong winds
 
colinrelf said:
I noticed the other year that a couple of my colonies were dropping lots of dead bees, week after week. To start with I thought the worse but then realised that they were suffering from the cold. I replaced the varroa board and this helped keep the heat in and the bees alive. One observation thou was condensation on the plastic board. This was rectified by drilling a few holes to allow air to pass through.
Click to expand...

Bees would hardly die of cold. They die of hunger in winter ( and diseases, parasites). Lot of beeks with hives with mesh floor remove bottom tray before winter and return it when brood start ( mid January, beginning of February). No matter how cold meanwhile. But again that are mostly lang hives where the cluster is in upper box during the winter.
 
colinrelf said:
I replaced the varroa board.......... One observation thou was condensation on the plastic board. This was rectified by drilling a few holes to allow air to pass through.
Click to expand...

A much better way is to lift the brood box off the floor by a few mm.
A coin in each corner works well.
I have a a couple of custom made inspection trays with a small square cut out in the middle which I used to use before I got poly hives.
 
Just wondering, so don't take this as gospel:

The bees in the hive are the heat source.
While heating the air they are also breathing, which puts water vapour into the rising air.
When the warm air hits the (relatively cold) crown board some of the water condenses out of the air. This condensation will drop on the bees. Damp is bad for the bees.

Cooled air then descends. It eventually hits the bottom and will condense on the even cooler inspection board and mesh. However, this water is beneath the bees so will not drop on them and cause harm. Possibly it could act as an indoor supply of water.

Possibly leaving the inspection board would lead to a build-up of moisture in the air (as the water with high moisture content cannot easily leave the hive and just recirculates) leading to more condensation on the crown board and more water dropping on the bees.

Would appreciate thoughts of experienced bee keeper!

If this analysis is correct, it would suggest that you are better off leaving the inspection board out. (And would explain the whole thing with solid floors and matchsticks under the crown board.)
 
.
One basic component in wintering is that cluster may be too small compared to room. Then the temp of interior is low and respiration sir condensates near cluster.

Cold kills hives. I know that very well. Bees consume their stores too quickly and die out.

But in Uk winter has been very warm this year.

Nosema hits easily in winter and that is why there are dead bees inside the hive. Abdomen is often swollen in dead bees. Normal thing.
.
 
jd101k2000 said:
Just wondering, so don't take this as gospel:

The bees in the hive are the heat source.
While heating the air they are also breathing, which puts water vapour into the rising air.
When the warm air hits the (relatively cold) crown board some of the water condenses out of the air. This condensation will drop on the bees. Damp is bad for the bees.

Cooled air then descends. It eventually hits the bottom and will condense on the even cooler inspection board and mesh. However, this water is beneath the bees so will not drop on them and cause harm. Possibly it could act as an indoor supply of water.

Possibly leaving the inspection board would lead to a build-up of moisture in the air (as the water with high moisture content cannot easily leave the hive and just recirculates) leading to more condensation on the crown board and more water dropping on the bees.

Would appreciate thoughts of experienced bee keeper!

If this analysis is correct, it would suggest that you are better off leaving the inspection board out. (And would explain the whole thing with solid floors and matchsticks under the crown board.)
Click to expand...

Insulate the no-hole coverboard, so that it stays warmer than the walls - that will stop any condensation from forming on the coverboard and then dripping onto the cluster. Condensation occurs on the coldest surface.
The insulation layer needs to be pretty good to be effective (the bees don't generate much heat.). Modern building insulation board (Kingspan/Celotex/Recticel/etc) is massively better than bits of sponge rubber or old carpet! And insulation board is cheap, even if bought new (£3 per hive?)

Remove the inspection board. Allow any debris to fall clear and any excessive condensation to drip clear. (Condensation on side walls isn't all bad - it allows the bees to recycle their water rather than taking on the dangerous (bee-lethal) task of foraging for (cold) water in cold weather.)
If your hive is on an exposed site, with a gale of wind blowing under the hive, then consider putting an empty super under the floor, so that there is sheltered still air immediately below the OMF.

Insulated (closed) coverboard plus open (mesh) floor works well in English winter conditions.
//ADDED I'm sure it would do equally well in lowland Wales. However, in the more mountainous areas, a polyhive (likely still with open floor) should do nicely.
 
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itma said:
Insulate the no-hole coverboard, so that it stays warmer than the walls - that will stop any condensation from forming on the coverboard and then dripping onto the cluster. Condensation occurs on the coldest surface.
The insulation layer needs to be pretty good to be effective (the bees don't generate much heat.). Modern building insulation board (Kingspan/Celotex/Recticel/etc) is massively better than bits of sponge rubber or old carpet! And insulation board is cheap, even if bought new (£3 per hive?)

Remove the inspection board. Allow any debris to fall clear and any excessive condensation to drip clear. (Condensation on side walls isn't all bad - it allows the bees to recycle their water rather than taking on the dangerous (bee-lethal) task of foraging for (cold) water in cold weather.)
If your hive is on an exposed site, with a gale of wind blowing under the hive, then consider putting an empty super under the floor, so that there is sheltered still air immediately below the OMF.

Insulated (closed) coverboard plus open (mesh) floor works well in English winter conditions.
//ADDED I'm sure it would do equally well in lowland Wales. However, in the more mountainous areas, a polyhive (likely still with open floor) should do nicely.
Click to expand...

:iagree::iagree:

seems to work pretty well around here as well although at an altitude of only 120 metres above sea level I wouldn't consider it lowland
 
Finman said:
.
One basic component in wintering is that cluster may be too small compared to room. Then the temp of interior is low and respiration sir condensates near cluster.

Cold kills hives. I know that very well. Bees consume their stores too quickly and die out.

But in Uk winter has been very warm this year.

Nosema hits easily in winter and that is why there are dead bees inside the hive. Abdomen is often swollen in dead bees. Normal thing.
.
Click to expand...

But very,very wet and very windy... very effective at removing heat.

The idea of wrapping hives is probably more relavent to the UK than colder climates. As the wrap does does not insulate by itself but reduces the effects of forced convection (wind) and forced evaporation. Just as a cagoule keeps you dry and warm on wet and windy days because its wind and water proof. Epsecially in warm wet Wales.
 
derekm said:
But very,very wet and very windy... very effective at removing heat.

.
Click to expand...

Very true what you say.

I have noticed that colonies do better in open cold air than under moist snow cover. And wind is bad.
 
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Omf

I posted before Christmas that I had hundreds of dead bees outside one of my hives. It was quite a shock as the other two were fine. This is my first year as a beek so I asked my mentor who has over 40 years experience for his opinion.
He tested my bees for Nosema and found nothing then we looked at the OMF.
We both decided to close the OMF and see if anything improved.
Yes it did, no more hundreds of dead bees, just an odd one every day or so. Having spoken to him this past few weeks he stated none of his 12 hives have OMF and year on year he very rarely loses any. He showed me a colony the other day in a tree. Just a hole into it one inch in diameter and they have survived 3 winters. No OMF there he said.
I just think that everything is different and a lot of this beekeeping stuff is trial and error and experience gained from this.
 
If the air just under cluster is disturbed, this will chill, as this is the air that is drawn up by convection to the bees. The more of this air that is just recirculated round, the warmer the bees.

Looking at flow simulations and the reported behaviour of some colonies:
Try taping a 50mm border round the periphery of the mesh leaving a very large square open area, thus leaving the function of the OMF largely intact.

The idea is, this will help deflect some of the wall downward circulation as seen in the simulations, but mostly because some members in the club have seen bees propolising their OMF in this fashion.
 
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jenkinsbrynmair said:
:iagree::iagree:

seems to work pretty well around here as well although at an altitude of only 120 metres above sea level I wouldn't consider it lowland
Click to expand...

Do you cover the opening in the back wall of the floor, that the inspection board slides into, as well ?
This was suggested at the club and seems well founded.
 
If some stocks are losing bees and the others are not and they are in a similar hive design, then it's not necessarily the hive but something else?
 
Karsal said:
I posted before Christmas that I had hundreds of dead bees outside one of my hives. It was quite a shock as the other two were fine. This is my first year as a beek so I asked my mentor who has over 40 years experience for his opinion.
He tested my bees for Nosema and found nothing then we looked at the OMF.
We both decided to close the OMF and see if anything improved.
Yes it did, no more hundreds of dead bees, just an odd one every day or so. Having spoken to him this past few weeks he stated none of his 12 hives have OMF and year on year he very rarely loses any. He showed me a colony the other day in a tree. Just a hole into it one inch in diameter and they have survived 3 winters. No OMF there he said.
I just think that everything is different and a lot of this beekeeping stuff is trial and error and experience gained from this.
Click to expand...

Hebeegeebee said:
If some stocks are losing bees and the others are not and they are in a similar hive design, then it's not necessarily the hive but something else?
Click to expand...

Quite.

It may also need to be explained that open mesh floors are a "new-fangled invention" rather less than 40 years old.
They were actually introduced as an 'upgrade' before their use in connection with varroa became the reason for their widespread acceptance in the UK (except with those who seem particularly reluctant to embrace any change).

Does the mentor find that the holes in his coverboards are big enough, or does he raise the coverboards on matchsticks to provide more winter ventilation as his reaction to condensation?
 
derekm said:
Do you cover the opening in the back wall of the floor, that the inspection board slides into, as well ?
Click to expand...

Don't cover anything. I use under floor entrances so the floor is about three and a half inches deep on the outside - the only space between floor and frames is a single beespace, then there is an inch and a half batten at the rear then the slot for the inspection tray, the other three sides, as I said is 3.5 inches all round
 
I have all OMFs. Don't lose many colonies. It was, mind, adopted when I changed to top bee space 14 x 12s from bottom spaced deeps with solid floor. I have never considered them as a 'varroa' floor, only as an easy means to check mite drop.

I considered the cluster to be too close to the floor if they were over-wintered on a single brood box, at the time. I didn't like a deep and a shallow as a brooding area in early spring.

Winter loss of bees from the cluster indicates a problem with the bees. Likely either varroa infested at pupation time (or associated with trickling oxalic?). Or possibly a weak colony originally?
 
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