What could be happening?

Hello
One of my hives is up to something and I would be gratefully for advice.

The hive in question is the result of a combination made at the end of August. We combined a hive where the queen had stopped laying (no eggs or brood for weeks and wall to wall stores in the brood frames). Both hives were strong in numbers so we gave them an additional empty super when the combination was complete to make sure they had enough room - they then had 3 supers.

Yesterday it looked as though they had swarmed under the hive, lots and lots of bees hanging down in a cluster. We managed to get them into a spare hive but today they were back under the original hive. Collected them again and did an inspection to try and see what was going on and the queen was in there! And no signs of any swarm cells.

So. I'm now thinking that it was not a swarm but why are they all out there? They are all back together again and now on double brood.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what might be going on?

You could have 2 queens in the hive.

Had similar myself with a colony, I was 100% sure they only had 1 queen but I was wrong. Missed a virgin queen in the hive. No idea why they didn't fight it out. Maybe they smelt the same as they were sisters who knows.

When the virgin was mated one queen took up residence under the OMF
Had to put them into another hive in the end and put the tray under to stop them going back under the floor.
Three times i put them back in the hive and three times they went straight under the floor.
I put them into a hive and a week later both had eggs in so I did miss a queen.

If they are back under the floor tomorrow see if you have a queen in the hive and one under it.

HelenHP16 said:

We combined a hive where the queen had stopped laying (no eggs or brood for weeks and wall to wall stores in the brood frames).

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How did you check/know whether there was no queen in that hive?

jenkinsbrynmair said:

How did you check/know whether there was no queen in that hive?

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HelenHP16 said:

Hello

The hive in question is the result of a combination made at the end of August. We combined a hive where the queen had stopped laying (no eggs or brood for weeks and wall to wall stores in the brood frames). .

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Which came first - the no eggs or the wall to wall stores?

The no eggs came first. We left it a few inspections, all the sealed brood went and nothing came to replace. We could have added a frame of eggs from another hive but wanted to combine going into winter

With this nice weather, if there was a second Q in the hive they'd probably have just gone ahead and swarmed.

richardbees said:

With this nice weather, if there was a second Q in the hive they'd probably have just gone ahead and swarmed.

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hmmm - probably and bees don't always go together

Jenks, you're possibly right but an adverb meaning less predictable than would, will or might just didn't come to mind!
rich

jenkinsbrynmair said:

hmmm - probably and bees don't always go together

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I agree.

We could have added a frame of eggs from another hive but wanted to combine going into winter

Nige.Coll was on the money here right from the start.

You never unite unless 100% certain there is/are no egg layer(s) present, unless you have two queens, either of which could take over (and things could still go awry -see below).

A test frame is always needed unless you are 100% sure the colony is queenless and does not have active laying workers. A test frame is mostly a poor way to requeen s colony and it would be inappropriate to try to requeen by that method at this time of the year.

I would expect that your failure to ascertain the condition of the both colonies, before uniting, has precipitated your current predicament.

Usually two queens would scrap it out to the death of one, but other outcomes could be as yours, one queen swarming, or emergency cells produced because the queen was killed and maybe one of two other scenarios - who knows?

Try to keep things simple and follow the tried and tested approaches. They fail far less often than ad hoc decisions with no corroborative evidence.

RAB

FWIW, I think RAB has dealt with the matter.

jenkinsbrynmair said:

hmmm - probably and bees don't always go together

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Actually, I find it very helpful to think in terms of probability with bees.

Einstein supposedly said that "God doesn't play dice", but a colony is as good a demonstration of the "Monte Carlo Method" as one could hope for. If one remembers that bees DO 'play dice', it may be helpful.

Certainty in predicting bee behaviour is not to be expected, but one outcome being more likely ("more probable") than another absolutely is what beekeeping manipulations are about.