New Beehaus

I am a first time bee keeper and have just set up my Beehaus and made the frames. I am now looking for a nuc to start it off. What I hadn't realised was that the frames are 14x12 deep Nationals and very few local beekeepers use these! I have 4 options 1. Buy a nuc from Omlet for £180 2. Find someone with a nuc on 14x12 frames 3. Wait for a swarm. 4. Buy a nuc on small frames and remove in 3 weeks. Does anyone have any words of wisdom about what they first did and how successful it was or know of anyone reasonably near where I live near Hull who might have a suitable nuc for May/June?
Any advice welcome. Thanks

Clive, you could also buy a package of bees, a nice clean start, and these can be installed direct into your new hive on frames fitted with foundation, bit like a swarm but with bees and queen of known origin and temperament, perhaps ask someone with experience of installing packages to give you a hand, and to make sure things go to plan, as your just starting out.

Clive's Hive said:

I am a first time bee keeper and have just set up my Beehaus and made the frames. I am now looking for a nuc to start it off. What I hadn't realised was that the frames are 14x12 deep Nationals and very few local beekeepers use these! I have 4 options 1. Buy a nuc from Omlet for £180 2. Find someone with a nuc on 14x12 frames 3. Wait for a swarm. 4. Buy a nuc on small frames and remove in 3 weeks. Does anyone have any words of wisdom about what they first did and how successful it was or know of anyone reasonably near where I live near Hull who might have a suitable nuc for May/June?
Any advice welcome. Thanks

Click to expand...

buy a set of burnett extensions

http://www.thorne.co.uk/frames-and-foundations/frames/british-standard-frames?product_id=4481

not ideal but can be added to one national frame at a time to make 14x12 frame ,

or let them draw wild comb under the national frames

I bought a nuc on standard frames and put them into the middle of my beehaus with a cardboard box under the frames to block the extra space. As the colony expanded I added deeper frames and gradually removed the short ones as the brood hatched out of them.

MuswellMetro said:

buy a set of burnett extensions

http://www.thorne.co.uk/frames-and-foundations/frames/british-standard-frames?product_id=4481

not ideal but can be added to one national frame at a time to make 14x12 frame ,

or let them draw wild comb under the national frames

Click to expand...

Forget the Burnett frame extenders. Fitting them to in-use frames is NOT something for a beginner to tackle!

Converting from National to 14x12 by simply letting the bees extend the frames with 'wild' unframed comb is not too awkward, and great initial training in gentle frame handling ...

The 14x12 frames might be the best thing about the Beehaus, but that's a different story!

Minxpinx said:

I bought a nuc on standard frames and put them into the middle of my beehaus with a cardboard box under the frames to block the extra space. As the colony expanded I added deeper frames and gradually removed the short ones as the brood hatched out of them.

Click to expand...

I know somebody who did that, I have no idea who suggested it. The bees chewed through the cardboard and, in less than a week, built wild comb in the gap! It would have been easier, in the long term, if they'd shaken the bees off the shorter frames.

itma said:

Converting from National to 14x12 by simply letting the bees extend the frames with 'wild' unframed comb is not too awkward, and great initial training in gentle frame handling ...

Click to expand...

The above is the way to do it if you decide to buy an overwintered national Nuc - there's a few for sale on here at present .. I have a long deep hive and the swarm I collected originally was put in standard national nucleus .. by three days in all the frames were drawn out and full of brood ... I just put them in my 14 x 12 LDH and they built wild comb on the bottom of the nationals .. it's no problem. You can just move them out to the edge and gradually replace them with 14 x 12 frames.

The wild comb they build in the bottom of the frames tends to be drone cells and if there are varroa in the colony then that's where they will be ... cut it off when there's drone brood in there and you have reduced the varroa load.

Good luck, there's a few Beehaus members on here but they tend to keep quiet about it ! There's a few Dartingtons and then me with my Starship Enterprise hive and we are all similar to the Beehaus so don't be put off by those who don't like the beer cooler !

This is what a national frame looks like after a week in a 14 x 12 hive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/13848343533/in/set-72157643951385343

Clive's Hive said:

I am a first time bee keeper and have just set up my Beehaus and made the frames. I am now looking for a nuc to start it off. What I hadn't realised was that the frames are 14x12 deep Nationals and very few local beekeepers use these! I have 4 options 1. Buy a nuc from Omlet for £180 2. Find someone with a nuc on 14x12 frames 3. Wait for a swarm. 4. Buy a nuc on small frames and remove in 3 weeks. Does anyone have any words of wisdom about what they first did and how successful it was or know of anyone reasonably near where I live near Hull who might have a suitable nuc for May/June?
Any advice welcome. Thanks

Click to expand...

Clive, I saw your email sent to our local association, as it has been forwarded to all members.

I'm sure one of our members will be in touch, shortly, if you do not get a response, I'll send you the details of one of the members, which usually has nucs for sale April/May, but they are in high demand, and usually has a waiting list.

Also, The Auction, is on Sunday 26th April.

However most of us, run standard national, and not 14x12

Clive's Hive said:

I am a first time bee keeper and have just set up my Beehaus and made the frames. I am now looking for a nuc to start it off. What I hadn't realised was that the frames are 14x12 deep Nationals and very few local beekeepers use these! I have 4 options 1. Buy a nuc from Omlet for £180 2. Find someone with a nuc on 14x12 frames 3. Wait for a swarm. 4. Buy a nuc on small frames and remove in 3 weeks. Does anyone have any words of wisdom about what they first did and how successful it was or know of anyone reasonably near where I live near Hull who might have a suitable nuc for May/June?
Any advice welcome. Thanks

Click to expand...

Pm sent. However it's worth asking have you any knowledge, training or experience in keeping bees?

Clive's Hive said:

What I hadn't realised was that the frames are 14x12 deep Nationals and very few local beekeepers use these! I have 4 options...

Click to expand...

Option 5: you can put any frames in any depth of hive as long as the frame isn't too tall, too narrow or too wide for the hive. The bees will simply build comb underneath the frames, but that isn't a problem unless they are frames that you'd want to use for centrifugal honey extraction.

The bees will stop short of the bottom of the hive when they build their own comb. The fact that the frame's bottom bar ends up in the "middle" of the comb will not affect brood nest building.

You also don't need to put frames of the same height next to each other, so once the colony is strong enough, and have built comb under the brood frames, you could put 14x10 frames inbetween them, if that is what you would normally have done.

pargyle said:

...
This is what a national frame looks like after a week in a 14 x 12 hive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/13848343533/in/set-72157643951385343

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm going off-topic now. Good display hooks for the frames, Pargyle. I'm intrigued by the collection of discs with numbers on them. What, or how, are you using them?

pargyle said:

... There's a few Dartingtons and then me with my Starship Enterprise hive and we are all similar to the Beehaus so don't be put off by those who don't like the beer cooler !

This is what a national frame looks like after a week in a 14 x 12 hive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/13848343533/in/set-72157643951385343

Click to expand...

Well, a bit like that ... but in a normal 14x12 hive, there isn't so much bottom/floor space, and so the unframed comb is rather shorter.
Some of the other photos show unframed comb being built below full-size 14x12 frames. IIRC, this home-designed hive has since been modified to prevent/reduce this.

So, yes, it would look a bit like that, but you should expect rather less 'depth' of such unframed comb in your Beehaus.





The number tags look like a simple reusable photo-tagging method, indicating in-photo which frame (and side?) is being photographed.

pargyle said:

This is what a national frame looks like after a week in a 14 x 12 hive.

Click to expand...

Nice picture of the queen.

The box under shorter frames idea will work, just make it out of something the bees won't eat like plywood rather than cardboard.

If you make several boxes, each covering under 2 frames, you'll be able to gradually change from normal frames to 14x12's by removing one box at a time, and replacing it with a couple of new frames with foundation.
OR
Just stick with the deep size frames and a large box underneath, you'll effectively create a periscope entrance.

Madge said:

Sorry, I'm going off-topic now. Good display hooks for the frames, Pargyle. I'm intrigued by the collection of discs with numbers on them. What, or how, are you using them?

Click to expand...

Yep ... ITMA got it in one ... When I inspect I hang the frames on the frame hanger under the roof of my hive so the hung frame is above the rest of the frames so I can photograph them. The discs are just slices through a broom handle with a frame number on them and A and B for the side to identify which frame/side is being shot. The camera sits on an old tripod and focused so I find I can do inspections very quickly ... followed by hours sitting poring over close ups on the laptop !! My eyesight is not what it used to be.

And yes ... my long hive does have a design flaw (It's a long story !) and yes there is about 2" of space below the 14 x 12 frames above the mesh floor and yes they do sometimes build comb in there and no it hasn't been modified yet to remove the errant space - but it is on the list of jobs to be done ...

Hivemaker. said:

Nice picture of the queen.

Click to expand...

Yes ... she was a nice queen .. buggered off with the swarm last May ! Her daughters were a lot more promiscuous .. all sorts of colours and sizes as well as the nice little black ones on these frames. There'll be some photos once it gets warm enough to play with them ...

pargyle said:

...and yes there is about 2" of space below the 14 x 12 frames above the mesh floor and yes they do sometimes build comb in there and no it hasn't been modified yet to remove the errant space - but it is on the list of jobs to be done...

Click to expand...

Over here, extra bottom space in hives that have deep bottoms is taken care of using a removable buildstop. The bees sometimes build comb underneath the buildstop, but it's easier to remove from there than having to trim it off the frames.

What is the other flaw that you referred to?

ugcheleuce said:

Over here, extra bottom space in hives that have deep bottoms is taken care of using a removable buildstop. The bees sometimes build comb underneath the buildstop, but it's easier to remove from there than having to trim it off the frames.

What is the other flaw that you referred to?

Click to expand...

There are several and the hive is going to get a bit of a re-build this year once I can get the bees out and into another hive. These are the principal ones:

1. The mesh floor sits in a 50mm frame but I put the mesh on the bottom of the frame when I should have put it on the top - hence I created 50mm of space below the frames. The fact that the floor of the hive has a step down to where the mesh floor is means that dummy boards cannot just be straight across the bottom they have to be shaped to fit the bottom of the hive - and the mesh floor bows slightly in the middle so the bees inevitably get past the bottom of my dummy boards. To solve this I tried putting foam rubber on the bottom of the dummy boards and the bees ate it.

2. The mesh floor frame clips on to the bottom of the hive and the idea was that it could be unclipped and would just drop down onto the two cross rails of the legs and then simply slide out from the hive. Because the bees build free comb underneath the frames and the side rails of the legs are too high I can drop the floor but I can't slide it out as it would slice off the comb on the bottom of the frames.

3. There is a lip on the edge of the mesh floor frame that locates the floor in the bottom of the hive - bad idea - the bees propolise it and stick it in place and also the hive has distorted slightly so a crow bar is needed to get the floor back in place. Lesson learned - never have lips on bee boxes where the bees can get at them - flush fit every time. I wondered why bee boxes just sit on top of each other ? ... now I know !

3a. Also this lip is not quite aligned and at the far right end of the hive the last couple of frames sit on it and are lifted up slightly so the crown board is pushed up (Not a problem as they have never got to 27 frames yet !) - I just don't put the frames in at that end of the hive and fill the empty space with insulation - but it needs resolving.

4. There is no easy way of putting supers on this hive ... I think that a clip on roof would solve this problem but I really like the fact that I can hinge the roof up for a quick look through the crown board. Rock and a hard place on this so - still thinking.

5. The 'ventilation' holes around the bottom of the hive were put in before I decided on a full mesh floor and not a solid one - the bees have covered the mesh on the inside of these with propolis so I reckon I might as well just plug them up.

6. The frame hanger in the roof impacts on the 100mm of Kingspan I like to have in there over winter and the roof won't close so I have to unscrew the hanger and take it out in the autumn and put it back in the spring when I reduce the Kingspan down to 50mm. It's not a problem just a PIA and I don't think there's much I can do to change it. (I'm thinking about a frame hanger that is outside the hive that is mounted on a stand - so I can use it on all my hives - watch this space !).

Other than that it's nigh on perfect (for me !). Bearing in mind how the hive evolved from a Top Bar Hive and my lack of experience four years ago it's not been too bad but you only find out what works when you start using things - particularly when you are intent on reinventing the wheel !!

Oh ... and I will need a fork lift truck and Pickfords to move it !!

You will see what I mean above from this sequence of photos ...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/9401432181/in/album-72157634865981506/

We have all looked at your wonderful photos with envy.....what a display! Huge admiration for your woodworking skills.....mine only extend to frame making atm.
I can't wait to have a go with the long hive.
Fortunately my bees are on 14x12 frames...so moving them will hopefully go OK. I have started to prepare the long hive. There are now 20 new frames with wax and a tissue with lemon grass oil to help dispel the 'newness' of the hive.
Just waiting for good weather now.

Hi Clive
I had exactly the same issue when I started as I ordered my bees before I had decided what hive to get, but the upside down shoe box worked a treat for me under the frames until I had enough confidence to do anything about it. It took them a while to start to pay any attention to the box. I did buy the extensions pieces but as beginner I could not figure out how to fit them particular if they were to be fitted to frame already in use by the bees!

Pamela