Aborted Swarm - what next

My neighbour called to say she had a swarm of bees in her garden. Suspecting it might be from one of my colonies I went there immediately and, sure enough, about 9m up in a sycamore tree was quite a large swarm (rugby ball size) of honey bees. It was too high for me to contemplate climbing up so I set up a couple of bait hives in the hope of the bees finding one of them. Gradually the wind was getting up and after an hour or so of being blown about up the tree in the cluster, they took off and returned to the hive in my garden.

They were from the bottom box of a Snelgrove board split done on 22 May. I suspect that I lost a swarm from the bottom of this hive on 24 June. I removed 3 QCs, leaving 1, on 25 June and removed 3 more, leaving 1, on 1 July. I did this because I had not SEEN any eggs and assumed there was no queen in the hive.

The question is, what should I do now? The weather overnight looks like being wet and windy but they might try again tomorrow. This part of the hive comprises a under-floor entrance, 14x12 brood box, queen excluder, two supers (partially filled with uncapped honey) topped off with the Snelgrove board, (with another brood box, cover board and roof on top of that).

Is adding a further super likely to help this situation - I don't really have many more options or do I?

Help appreciated,

CVB

charlievictorbravo said:

...
I suspect that I lost a swarm from the bottom of this hive on 24 June. I removed 3 QCs, leaving 1, on 25 June and removed 3 more, leaving 1, on 1 July. I did this because I had not SEEN any eggs and assumed there was no queen in the hive.
...

Click to expand...

Mating flights can result in a 'false swarm' cluster near the apiary which returns to the original hive once they realise that that Q isn't in the cluster (she went out of the hive and kept on going on her mission).
Usually (but bees are bees) the return happens in 15 minutes or so, and they beard on the outside, Nasonov 'calling' Q back home.
If your original chosen QC was sealed (and you check it this evening and it looks emerged), then the time could (just) fit for a mating flight.
Certainly it'd be worth another check for QCs (shouldn't be any new ones if no Q in there).

Just don't inspect in the middle of the day when a VQ could be ready for a mating flight.
Emerged QC, and no new ones found, I'd leave further inspections until a few days after seeing lots of pollen going in. And that can be only a couple of days after mating ...

// Add another super only if the bees are congested.

What's next???


Swarm

@ 9AM tomorrow

At least you'll be ready for them

itma said:

Mating flights can result in a 'false swarm' cluster near the apiary which returns to the original hive once they realise that that Q isn't in the cluster (she went out of the hive and kept on going on her mission).
Usually (but bees are bees) the return happens in 15 minutes or so, and they beard on the outside, Nasonov 'calling' Q back home.
If your original chosen QC was sealed (and you check it this evening and it looks emerged), then the time could (just) fit for a mating flight.
Certainly it'd be worth another check for QCs (shouldn't be any new ones if no Q in there).

Just don't inspect in the middle of the day when a VQ could be ready for a mating flight.
Emerged QC, and no new ones found, I'd leave further inspections until a few days after seeing lots of pollen going in. And that can be only a couple of days after mating ...

// Add another super only if the bees are congested.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, Itma. Couldn't get to them yesterday evening but checked first thing this morning. Bottom BB packed with bees but the QC I'd seen on Thursday was still there - in fact I found another, which I removed. Wasn't sure whether to tear down last QC or leave it. I decided to leave it on the basis of, if they do swarm and I did not catch it, at least there's the makings of a queen in the hive. To try to do something about the congestion, I removed the QX and added another empty super with fresh foundation.

The configuration now is: underfloor entrance, brood box, three supers (two largely undrawn), Snelgrove Board, Brood box, coverboard, roof.

One bit of advice from a local beek was to put a QX UNDER the brood box to stop the queen leaving but I did not do this because the Snelgrove Board would still provide an exit for the Queen, if she found it. It would also trap lots of drones in the hive unless they found the SB exit at the top of their stack.

It's now a waiting game, I guess.

CVB

charlievictorbravo said:

Thanks for that, Itma. . . .

It's now a waiting game, I guess.

CVB

Click to expand...

It's been very windy here today,which may have put them of swarming, but no sign of a swarm from the hive, so fingers crossed ...

CVB

charlievictorbravo said:

... Bottom BB packed with bees but the QC I'd seen on Thursday was still there - in fact I found another, which I removed. ...

Click to expand...

Well, in that case, if its true, the other day they sure didn't go out on a mating flight with Q from your chosen QC!

However, bees having a cruel sense of humour, they are known to sometimes reseal a QC after Q has emerged. Often with a worker inside ... trapped, head first, as opposed to all baby bees which are arranged head outwards in the cell (not least so they can nibble their way out, when the time comes.)
If you look REALLY closely, you can usually spot a re-sealed cell. But you do have to look for that specific condition, otherwise you wouldn't spot it.

itma said:

However, bees having a cruel sense of humour, they are known to sometimes reseal a QC after Q has emerged. Often with a worker inside ... trapped,

Click to expand...

Or before...

IMG_2431 by Northwestengland, on Flickr

Hi Charlie,
You have at least two emerged virgins in there. They will swarm again as for some reason a queen did not go with them the first time around. If you 'put your ear to the hive' then you can hear what is going on. Hat on and try to keep veil away from the face - a bit tricky. The queens will pipe, out of the QCs they toot (like a party tooter) and if still in cell they quack. You may well have two queens tooting and one quacking.
I actually did this over a month ago now, but I had marked the virgin as she emerged from a QC and put the remainder of the QCs into a made up nuc. I missed one QC, as it is easily done, even though I shook all the bees off. Anyway, I fished her out and put her with all the QCs in the nuc. Checked parent hive day after and a queen was piping, but luckily no answer. Parent hive queen laid 13 days after emergence and the marked queen 15 days after emergence. You have nothing to lose IMHO apart from the swarm you have already seen leaving once.

CVB,,,
Have you got enough nuc boxed to do a big split?

Seems drastic, but can work.

Prep up enough nuc boxes to break colony down into a number of nucs, each with at least one frame of brood with eggs/V young larvae... remaining brood, + stores and make up frames.... original hive can be set up the same... and if on double brood 2 hives could be made up in addition tho nucs......

Feed all with 1:1 leave entrances open......

and hope this thundery weather passes quickly.... see if you have q cells or eggs etc in one week... you will have your original queen in one box... possibly a newly mated virgin in another and more colonies in the making......

Hope they are Amms!

Yeghes da

beeno said:

Hi Charlie,
You have at least two emerged virgins in there. They will swarm again as for some reason a queen did not go with them the first time around. If you 'put your ear to the hive' then you can hear what is going on. Hat on and try to keep veil away from the face - a bit tricky. The queens will pipe, out of the QCs they toot (like a party tooter) and if still in cell they quack. You may well have two queens tooting and one quacking.
I actually did this over a month ago now, but I had marked the virgin as she emerged from a QC and put the remainder of the QCs into a made up nuc. I missed one QC, as it is easily done, even though I shook all the bees off. Anyway, I fished her out and put her with all the QCs in the nuc. Checked parent hive day after and a queen was piping, but luckily no answer. Parent hive queen laid 13 days after emergence and the marked queen 15 days after emergence. You have nothing to lose IMHO apart from the swarm you have already seen leaving once.

Click to expand...

AND CVB if you here them singing "Trelawny" they will be Cornish Black Bees!


Yeghes da

icanhopit said:

CVB,,,
Have you got enough nuc boxed to do a big split?

Seems drastic, but can work.

Prep up enough nuc boxes to break colony down into a number of nucs, each with at least one frame of brood with eggs/V young larvae... remaining brood, + stores and make up frames.... original hive can be set up the same... and if on double brood 2 hives could be made up in addition tho nucs......

Feed all with 1:1 leave entrances open......

and hope this thundery weather passes quickly.... see if you have q cells or eggs etc in one week... you will have your original queen in one box... possibly a newly mated virgin in another and more colonies in the making......

Hope they are Amms!

Yeghes da

Click to expand...

I don't have enough spare kit to do that - all I could rustle up would be one nuc and one additional 14x12 brood box. Even if I were to split them, how can I ensure I've evenly distributed the virgin queens?

If it's certain that there's at least one virgin queen (possibly more) running around in there, I could at least remove the last QC so as to not make the issue any worse (by adding another VQ to the mix)! Is that taking too much of a chance on there being at least one VQ in there?

CVB

beeno said:

Hi Charlie,
You have at least two emerged virgins in there. They will swarm again as for some reason a queen did not go with them the first time around. If you 'put your ear to the hive' then you can hear what is going on. Hat on and try to keep veil away from the face - a bit tricky. The queens will pipe, out of the QCs they toot (like a party tooter) and if still in cell they quack. You may well have two queens tooting and one quacking.
I actually did this over a month ago now, but I had marked the virgin as she emerged from a QC and put the remainder of the QCs into a made up nuc. I missed one QC, as it is easily done, even though I shook all the bees off. Anyway, I fished her out and put her with all the QCs in the nuc. Checked parent hive day after and a queen was piping, but luckily no answer. Parent hive queen laid 13 days after emergence and the marked queen 15 days after emergence. You have nothing to lose IMHO apart from the swarm you have already seen leaving once.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the very informative post. I've just got back from a family event and have just caught up with the forum's advice so have not been able to check for piping, tooting and quacking. I'll do that first thing in the morning. If I find there's piping going on, how can I separate the VQs - the thought of trying to find them is pretty daunting.

Should I use what spare kit I have as bait hives to try to hive the inevitable swarm(s)?

CVB

Hi CVB,
It is daunting looking for a virgin in those circumstances. But they have fired the warning shot and they settled high, so in my book you have got nothing to lose. Do the listening test first though.

CVB,
Another possibility is to put a strip of QX over the entrance (she is not the first one out) and she will be left on it! Put her in a nuc with a QX next to the hive and await the swarms return. This one I have not done myself yet, but I am sure it will work. You may have to scoop some of the returning bees into nuc before they realise she is in there. May the force be with you.

I see we've stepped into the matrix again

beeno said:

CVB,
Another possibility is to put a strip of QX over the entrance (she is not the first one out) and she will be left on it! Put her in a nuc with a QX next to the hive and await the swarms return.

Click to expand...

You've lost me, beeno
Can you explain?

charlievictorbravo said:

... If I find there's piping going on, how can I separate the VQs - the thought of trying to find them is pretty daunting.
...

Click to expand...

Don't bother!
Look for QCs and release any/all the VQs.

'Springing' virgins (releasing all of them from their cells simultaneously) so that they seek and destroy the rivals, is a pretty well-established means of dealing with the emergency situation of having one or more virgins emerge during inspection.
It is very rare to end up with anything other than a single healthy survivor. And no casts. This deadly struggle is perfectly natural behaviour.

Of course, it would be better to 'harvest' VQs to mating nucs, but 'springing' is an effective trick in the specific situation of them being ready to emerge RIGHT NOW, and you being wholly unprepared for there being more than one. (Which also implies that it is getting you out of a hole you shouldn't really have been in ...)

beeno said:

Hi CVB,
It is daunting looking for a virgin in those circumstances. But they have fired the warning shot and they settled high, so in my book you have got nothing to lose. Do the listening test first though.

Click to expand...

I did the listening test twice this morning from beside the brood box and from the rear of the underfloor entrance - not a peep out of them apart from a general humming noise. Could they have sorted it out amongst themselves - survival of the fittest? The weather here has been wet and windy so not a good day to embark on a swarm so maybe a combination of factors.

CVB

beeno said:

CVB,
Another possibility is to put a strip of QX over the entrance (she is not the first one out) and she will be left on it! Put her in a nuc with a QX next to the hive and await the swarms return. This one I have not done myself yet, but I am sure it will work. You may have to scoop some of the returning bees into nuc before they realise she is in there. May the force be with you.

Click to expand...

Well, I did not have any strips of QX material but I did have the QX I removed a couple of days ago so I strapped that to the front of the hive. Weather today was not good and it's not going to be good tomorrow either so I may have a day or so to finally sort this out but here's the photos of activity this afternoon around the external QX.

One thought did occur to me - in the stack of boxes there is a laying queen in the top brood box, above the Snelgrove Board. I could combine the two brood boxes, which I intended to do later anyway, and let the laying queen to the dirty deed on the virgin queens. Would that work?

CVB

My lovely laying queen ran merrily about the hive for 14 days until a sneaky virgin I didn't know about emerged and killed her.

Also - are you sure that QE is fitted tight to the entrance with no queen sized gaps?