Utilising a larger brood area next season

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Location
Dublin ( South )
Hive Type
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Hi

After a recent association lecture on swarming, want to try get clear in my head the pros and cons of *perhaps* switching from std national brood box, to Brood and half or commercial brood box for next season.

The Beek who gave the lecture, very close to where I keep my hives has all commercial brood boxes. That said he is vastly more experienced than I.

Just after this extraordinary year, when I was constantly it seemed fighting against bees that were determined to swarm. My thinking ( correctly or not ) is that the extra space might just provide that impetus for them to switch down a gear in the swarming stakes ??

Do realise that this setup is probably better suited to warm climes with more prolific colonies, but * IF * we had a decent Spring / Summer / Autumn it could be a good move ?? Also with the decent Autumn now it is giving us a fighting chance Maybe of a good start going in to next season.

Though would imagine with the Brood and half option it would be a pain to examine ? Having to inspect so many more frames ?

Look forward to some sound advice :) Thanks !
 
You're likely to get dozens of different opinions on this subject! I suggest you experiment yourself with the several options. Then you too will become opinionated!
 
My take on this is that the 'correct' size of hive very much depends on what bees you have.

Until this year, my cr@p mongrels would have been pushed to completely fill a standard National deep. But I now have 3 particularly good strains to work with (2 purchased, 1 arrived as an uninvited guest), and these are clearly 'brood-and-a-half' material, so they've been housed in bigger hives, one of which is 14x12. Never thought I'd ever be doing this ...

LJ
 
When I had bees in the past, I got away with a single national BB, but my new bees seem to be far more prolific, especially the Black mongrel Nuc which is covering all 11 frames and has filled 2 supers in October. I will put them to a broad and a half in the sprig. The other 2 colonies are more Italian in appearance and not so active, I will have to see how they perform as I only bought them last month.

Its good to be back into bees again after many years.
 
14 x 12 is another option. Just need an eke and a dozen frames to convert from deeps.

About the same number of cells as a commercial (OK, 14 x12 is a tad bigger).

A Commercial box would be lighter.
 
My take on this is that the 'correct' size of hive very much depends on what bees you have.
LJ

I must be set in my ways: I purchase 'Buckfast' type queens (will try and breed my own next year) but I've no idea what marauding mongrel drones my virgin queens shack up with - just as my late parents had no idea of my nefarious activities when I was a youth (but not for decades, honest). In brief, do any of us know 'what bees we have'?:serenade:
 
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Honey Bees ;)
Some lighter and some darker
Some gentle and some defensive
some prolific and some not
 
Thanks all for responses

14 x 12 is another option. Just need an eke and a dozen frames to convert from deeps.

About the same number of cells as a commercial (OK, 14 x12 is a tad bigger).

A Commercial box would be lighter.

To get clear in my head, so you are saying a 14 * 12 is the actual individual frame size ? This is bigger than a standard national frame ( size ? ) and again bigger than a frame ( size ) in a commercial B.Box ?

And to accommodate this 14 * 12 I would need to add an eke to a standard national B.Box and then transfer over to these bigger frames ?

Thanks
 
If you are going to change your BB size from standard to 14x12 there are two ways of doing it
shook swarm
Baileys comb change.

Shook swarm is probably the easiest method and Baileys the best but takes longer to achieve
If you still have four hives in the spring you will need a new 14x12 box to start changing and as soon as a standard box becomes available add an eke, and fit with 14x12 frames and do your second hive and continue until all hives are converted.

What ever system you decide to perform make sure you feed them to promote comb building and also there is a good pollen supply being collected.
 
Just for completeness. If you are going to change from deep British Standard National to 14 x 12 British Standard National, you have a third option as well as those two quoted.

You could transfer the in-use brood frames to an extra deep box, make up with new larger frames and work out the deep frames - just as you would if you started out with a nuc on deep frames into a 14 x 12 hive.

Further, if you were short of boxes, you could, at a push, utilise a couple of shallows, plus a small eke (or a deep floor), as a temporary brood box.

There are lots of 'surprising' options to get round minor problems if you are prepared to consider the problem carefully from all possible angles.

RAB
 
To get clear in my head, so you are saying a 14 * 12 is the actual individual frame size ? This is bigger than a standard national frame ( size ? )
Yes - the standard deep (brood frame) is somewhere around 14 x 8.5(ish) - something like that. Same top bar, but the 14x12 frame has a few inches more depth.

And to accommodate this 14 * 12 I would need to add an eke to a standard national B.Box and then transfer over to these bigger frames ?

If you've already got a colony on standard frames, then the easiest and cheapest solution is to make an 85mm (or thereabouts) eke and place it under the deep (brood) box.
Then simply install your existing frames 'as is'. The bees will proceed to draw 3 or 4 inches of unsupported comb at the bottom - which is untidy, perhaps, but needn't be an issue - then as you acquire your replacement 14x12 frames, simply chequerboard them (insert them 'every other one' into the comb array - as per the colours of chess board squares). Then gradually pull the standard frames out, over time.
LJ
 
Do realise that this setup is probably better suited to warm climes with more prolific colonies

Before changing your kit it may be worth running them without an excluder next season to see exactly what they can do. Do you need different kit, better bees or a combination of both? Just seems pointless investing in larger kit if the issue actually lies with your current stock. Meanwhile you'll be buying yourself time to get around a few local apiaries (courtesy of friendly association members) to get a taste of the different hives and box configurations available to you before actually taking the plunge.
 
Before changing your kit it may be worth running them without an excluder next season to see exactly what they can do. Do you need different kit, better bees or a combination of both? Just seems pointless investing in larger kit if the issue actually lies with your current stock. Meanwhile you'll be buying yourself time to get around a few local apiaries (courtesy of friendly association members) to get a taste of the different hives and box configurations available to you before actually taking the plunge.

Some sense at last, it's mostly about locality and the bees, not what box they're in.
FWIW I prefer standard national broods and go double if they need more space. This seems to be the most flexible and convenient when it comes to increase and swarm control.
I have many commercials too, a nice size box capable of housing a monstrous nest and producing huge crops, I still prefer the national for ease of use though.
 
Chequerboarding 14 x 12 frames between wild comb is a recipe for disaster. Far better to keep the wild comb frames together.

Another better and simple ploy is to prevent them building wild comb in the deeper box. So many options ...
 
If you are going to change your BB size from standard to 14x12 there are two ways of doing it
shook swarm
Baileys comb change.


There are 14*12 extensions available to use on DN frames.
 
Chequerboarding 14 x 12 frames between wild comb is a recipe for disaster.
Would you care to expand on that assertion ? It's only a couple of inches at the bottom, after all.

In the past I've chequer-boarded frames between Top Bars, and deeps between shallows - foundation, foundationless - just about every combination possible - never once had a problem of any kind.

In my latest hive - a dual 14x12 Long Hive, I actually intend to run all foundationless frames as 8.5" in a 12" deep cavity. I don't forsee any problems. Quite the opposite.

LJ
 
For nex tyear I am going to run with a brood and a half, as I only have at present 3 colonies the extra work is not too much. Any swarms could go straight into the larger BB.

Mike
 
... It's only a couple of inches ....

Maths clearly not your strong point? I make it rather more. Assuming you mean two when you write couple (not three or four).

Curly wild comb can easily be reflected in the adjacent frames. Not so easy to put the extra deeps back into shape as deeps. Far better to get them right first time.

You are not still in your first year of beekeeping either, like the OP.

Enough expansion? Hope so, because that is all you are getting.

What is a 'dual' long hive btw? Does it have two long rows of frames side by side (parallel) in the box or two long hives joined in series, as a really extra long hive?
 

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