Vapourising Oxalic Acid

jackstraw · Jan 13, 2014

I am planning to apply some oxalic acid shortly. I don't have a large mite drop but will do it as a preventative measure.

I appreciate that there is a difference in cost between dribbling and vapourising but I can afford to spend a few bob and will come nowhere near the vet and livery bills for my wife's horse!

Ignoring cost then, I do prefer the idea of not disturbing the bees any more than is absolutely necessary and so vapourising seems to be the way to go.

I have a couple of hives with open mesh floors.

If I buy a Varrox and some crystals, use an old battery I have around and suitable mask and goggles, put the end of the varrox into the front entrance and block up the front entrance with some foam, turn on and wait a few minutes, is that pretty much it?

If I am buying a vapouriser is the Varrox a good one to go for?

Many thanks

Jack

Hivemaker. · Jan 13, 2014

jackstraw said:
If I buy a Varrox and some crystals, use an old battery I have around and suitable mask and goggles, put the end of the varrox into the front entrance and block up the front entrance with some foam, turn on and wait a few minutes, is that pretty much it?

If I am buying a vapouriser is the Varrox a good one to go for?

Yes that all sounds fine, put the floor slides in, and try and do the treatment when the bees are not tightly clustered, more effective.

itma · Jan 13, 2014

Last Sunday, we had a 'safari' round 4 beginner's apiaries - so that they could see what Oxalic trickling involved under supervision.
The day was bright and clear, and not breezy, if a fraction warmer (+8C) than I'd have liked. The extra warmth (particularly for those in full sun or in poly) meant that the bees were a touch more mobile than if it had been a bit 'crisper' - but nevertheless, everyone saw that gently removing the coverboard (no big snaps) trickling in warm (20/25C would be ideal) Oxalic syrup and progressively covering the hive as each seam was treated (extra hands are helpful) really did NOT greatly disturb the bees.

For Oxalic vaporising, the required "mask and goggles" is actually a gas mask - not the sort of mask and goggles that one might wear for home redecoration (even for a Health & Safety obsessive). To be any use against Oxalic vapour, it needs to be gas-tight-sealed round the edges and with an appropriate filter cartridge on the breather.
To the best of my knowledge, the one-shot disposable filter cartridges (never mind the capital cost of the gas mask) are over a tenner.

The capital cost of the vaporiser plus personal protection kit becomes small beer if amortised over a few hundred hives and a dozen years or more.
But I think its a daft place to spend your money if you have only a couple of hives.
Better to buy another few hives for the same money.
Or go for a motorised, rather than a manual, honey extractor.
Or some nuc boxes and some Apideas. And upgrade to rigid-wire QXs and see-through polycarbonate coverboards.
There are better uses of the money!

Trickling isn't particularly disruptive.
Its damn nigh equal to sublimation on varroa (and not bee) killing. (You'd have to cull all the brood, ensuring exposing the sheltering varroa, to ensure better results with sublimation.) And that frames-out inspection itself would be way more disruptive than even botched trickling.
And for a handful of hives, trickling is pathetically cheap.

OK, it takes slightly longer to do the treatment (but its your hobby and you aren't worried about the total man hours saved across 250 hives) and it helps to have another pair of hands around - but y'know, it can be a sociable hobby!

To my mind, trickling is the appropriate way to go, at least for the first few years, and the first few hives.

Thorne's "Trickle2" (readymix in a dispenser bottle) is the ideal way to start. Just £3 for 2 hives-worth. Save the bottles and refill them with your own mix in future years.

There are better (more useful) things for the small-scae hobby beekeeper to spend the money on than Oxalic vaporising kit. Really!
But, its your money, and you can spend it however you like.
Let me just urge you, if you insist on vaporising, PLEASE do not try to save money (or trim the cost) by skimping on personal protection kit.

Arfermo · Jan 13, 2014

Varrox is the best available in UK. There is a similar gadget that used to be importable from Canada but last time I looked they wouldn't ship it. However, they seem to have had a change of heart even though they are currently out of stock.The Heilyser JB200 model is the one I would recommend and would avoid the JB600 model at all costs as it is basically a cheap gash copper plumbing job and unsafe imho judging by videos I have seen. You will have to ask about the shipping cost outside Canada/US before ordering. Have a look at http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/orderform.html etc. I think you will find that it will cost you about 60% of the Varrox even with shipping cost. A pal of mine has a very old Heilyser and has had no trouble with it on his 40 odd hives over a number of years.

As for goggles and all that stuff, never bothered with it. The lead from Varrox/Heilyser to the battery is pretty long and it takes a minute or more to get hot enough before the sublimation process even starts. If the battery is upwind of the hive to start with and you are even further away than that there is quite enough time to move out of the way any of the fumes. Even if you get a slight whiff it will do no more damage than eating some of the veggies that contain oxalic including rhubarb. AND DO TAKE ANY NOTICE OF THE SCAREMONGERERS on this topic. Hivemaker, our resident expert, agrees it is a far less stressful method of applying oxalic than trickling; also a recent post on this forum (by Hivemaker) details research that that showed that commerial sublimation of oxalic over a whole lifetime posed no significant risk either, even if one does get the odd whiff. QED.

As for my modus operandi, I bought a 2mm steel sheet the same size as the varroa tray on which I place the evaporator so that I can then sublimate from below the OMF. The very significant advantage of this is that there is no risk at all of frying any bees as compared with shoving the evapoarator in through the wide entrance above the OMF, as is the usual method. The other advantage is that there is infinitely less disturbance to the cluster than the trickling method with the added advantage that sugar crystallisation (another Hivemaker post again) on the bodies of the bees is avoided too. As with trickling oxalic, treatment should only done when brood is minimal or zero. A good time is after swarming, whether treating a caught swarm or after a shook swarm or similar.

Go to it I say. A small motorcycle battery is big enough even for a couple more hives than you have without recharging and is easily carried around.

itma · Jan 13, 2014

Advising people to take sensible precautions isn't scaremongering.

And neither is advising them that there are better things to spend their money on.

However, advising people to ignore all standard safety advice and vaporise Oxalic without any person protection equipment whatsoever is the sort of thing that, outside internet forums, gets people sued.

The other point about vaporising is that it really isn't appropriate to garden beekeeping.
The people downwind definitely won't have gasmasks.
Complaints about choking gas aren't calculated to make neighbours happier about your bees.
Of course its different with an apiary in the middle of the countryside and a long clear view downwind ... but it needs to be remembered that not everyone can do vaporising - some of us have neighbours.

itma · Jan 13, 2014

Arfermo said:
... If the battery is upwind of the hive to start with and you are even further away than that there is quite enough time to move out of the way any of the fumes. Even if you get a slight whiff it will do no more damage than eating some of the veggies that contain oxalic including rhubarb. ...

Nonsense.
Sorry.
Dangerous nonsense.

Just how dangerous is vaporized oxalic acid?

Airborne Exposure Limit, oxalic acid: 2 mg/m3 (STEL). The usual vaporized dose per colony is 2 grams. If half that amount actually vaporized, it could put 500 cubic meters of air (volume of a 2000 sq. ft. house) above the Threshold Limit Value for a 15-minute exposure! The same value for formic acid is 18.8 mg/m3—which means that vaporized oxalic is nine times as deadly at the same concentration. I vaporized a bit out back, then walked downwind and took a whiff from the cloud. I’ll tell you, it’s not something you want to inhale—I nearly coughed my guts out!

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/

MartinL · Jan 13, 2014

itma said:
Advising people to take sensible precautions isn't scaremongering. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
However, advising people to ignore all standard safety advice and vaporise Oxalic without any person protection equipment whatsoever is the sort of thing that, outside internet forums, gets people sued.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . some of us have neighbours.

I take it that this debate is on similar lines to the Epipen pro/cons, with the exception that;

I do have a vaporiser! :sifone:

Thought I'd drop a T spoon full of crystals on it, put inside entrance then close off with grass/hay. Connect battery for @20-30 seconds? :party:

Any thoughts?

P.S.
It's all in a field no one to suffocate or poison.

oliver90owner · Jan 13, 2014

IF you are going to sublimate, you can do it any time of the year as long as the colony is brood-free. I look at all oxalic treatment as unnecessary in the depths of winter in most situations.

Just think. What does it (winter treatment) achieve over reducing the varroa to less than a few in the spring? Certainly rarely going to be a colony saver if appropriate treatments are applied at other opportunities.

The beekeeper can live without resorting to oxalic acid treatment in the winter; and so can the bees. Just ask Hivemaker. Or me, 'cos I haven't needed to do it for the past several years. And there are others on the forum, too.

It really comes down to ineffective treatments at other times. Yes there may be the exceptions, but if some can do it, why can't the rest? Maybe I should leave the individual beeks to answer that for themselves, as a direct reply from me would be construed by some (often those that can't) as inflammatory.

Hivemaker. · Jan 13, 2014

...

itma said:
For Oxalic vaporising, the required "mask and goggles" is actually a gas mask -

Cost around £30 chemical warefare gas mask with new cannister.

itma said:
Trickling isn't particularly disruptive.
Its damn nigh equal to sublimation on varroa (and not bee) killing. (You'd have to cull all the brood, ensuring exposing the sheltering varroa, to ensure better results with sublimation.)

Much more disruptive than not having to open the hive at all in the middle of winter.

You would have to cull all the brood with either method, if only using one treatment, they both work effectively for a few days, but with sublimation you can treat two or three times to cover the emergence of any sealed brood, so no need to cull any brood, unlike the trickle method where only one treatment is recommended, and this one treatment harms the bees, three treatments would most certainly harm them, as old bees do not tolerate oxalic well after ingestion using the trickle method.

oliver90owner said:
The beekeeper can live without resorting to oxalic acid treatment in the winter; and so can the bees. Just ask Hivemaker. Or me, 'cos I haven't needed to do it for the past several years. And there are others on the forum, too.

Around six years now.

Arfermo · Jan 13, 2014

itma said:
Advising people to take sensible precautions isn't scaremongering.

And neither is advising them that there are better things to spend their money on.

However, advising people to ignore all standard safety advice and vaporise Oxalic without any person protection equipment whatsoever is the sort of thing that, outside internet forums, gets people sued.

The other point about vaporising is that it really isn't appropriate to garden beekeeping.
The people downwind definitely won't have gasmasks.
Complaints about choking gas aren't calculated to make neighbours happier about your bees.
Of course its different with an apiary in the middle of the countryside and a long clear view downwind ... but it needs to be remembered that not everyone can do vaporising - some of us have neighbours.

All rubbish. If you don't choose to sublimate, your comments in the terms that are in your post above are meaningless scaremongering. As for advising him not to waste his money, he said quite clearly that the cash element is not a concern to him so kindly read and understand posts before you waste space on this forum with your totally superfluous advice.

farbee · Jan 13, 2014

Would have to agree with ITMA. It is simple not credible to compare oxalic acid vapour with the oxalic acid food as this will effectively be in solution and be ingested into the stomach while oxalic acid in the gaseous phase which would go into the lungs.
Having said that it is fairly easy to apply oxalic acid vapour safely.

Would really like to know how you can get away without treating with oxalic acid at all. Are other treatments/management strategies being used or the bees 'special'?

Arfermo · Jan 13, 2014

farbee said:
Would have to agree with ITMA. It is simple not credible to compare oxalic acid vapour with the oxalic acid food as this will effectively be in solution and be ingested into the stomach while oxalic acid in the gaseous phase which would go into the lungs.
Agreed to some extent but that wasn't quite what I said.

Having said that it is fairly easy to apply oxalic acid vapour safely.
QUOTE] Precisely!!!

Hivemaker. · Jan 13, 2014

I agree with Itma that sublimation is possibly not the best way to go for a beginner, and the use of it in close proximity of neighbors is a bad idea, no one should put other peoples health at risk, especially if using the pressurized equipment...not so good for people, but much gentler on the bees, but best of all make sure the late summer early autumn treatments are effective, before the young winter bees are laid up, then sort any problems out easily and quickly through the active season and at a time when any problems can be easily fixed, rather than in the middle of winter when the bees are at their most vulnerable time of year.

itma · Jan 13, 2014

Arfermo said:
... As for advising him not to waste his money, he said quite clearly that the cash element is not a concern to him so kindly read and understand posts before you waste space on this forum with your totally superfluous advice.

Having read and understood the OP, my advice was that if he had the money available to spend on his new beekeeping hobby, there were many things that made more sense for expenditure before considering sublimation equipment.
Nothing superfluous in that.

Honestly, I'm not attacking your choice to use vaporisation on your own hives.
I'm not even particularly exercised by your personal decision not to use any protective equipment whatsoever while vaporising.
But I am concerned that you should be advising a beginner to take such risks - especially when the advice includes such nonsense as equating inhalation of vapour with ingestion of rhubarb.

It is one thing for you to go for your personal Darwin Award - another thing entirely for you to try and setup a novice for a Darwin Award of his own.

pargyle · Jan 13, 2014

Well ... I'm not commenting on whether to use Oxalic by the vapour method is the right way forward for a beginner but I would stress (as someone who suffered permanent neuroligical damage from over exposure to another chemical in similar concentrations to the exposure levels for OA vapour) it isn't worth the risk.

I'm not averse to risks where you can see what you are doing ... saws, planers, ladders are risks we all take ... you can SEE the risk. You won't know you have damaged yourself with OA until the damage is done.

Ignore the advice on the attached and you may regret it.

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Oxalic-Acid-Safety-sheet.pdf

Arfermo · Jan 14, 2014

pargyle said:
Well ... I'm not commenting on whether to use Oxalic by the vapour method is the right way forward for a beginner but I would stress (as someone who suffered permanent neuroligical damage from over exposure to another chemical in similar concentrations to the exposure levels for OA vapour) it isn't worth the risk.

I'm not averse to risks where you can see what you are doing ... saws, planers, ladders are risks we all take ... you can SEE the risk. You won't know you have damaged yourself with OA until the damage is done.

Ignore the advice on the attached and you may regret it.

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Oxalic-Acid-Safety-sheet.pdf

Unadulterated scaremongering yet again!!! There is a wealth of other stuff online that puts the safety issues in perspective on a thoroughly researched scientific basis by appropriately qualified people much better than anything in this article. Try being more realistic in your contributions regarding issues you have a bias against please. It just ain't constructive.

jackstraw · Jan 14, 2014

Many thanks

itma said:
Last Sunday, we had a 'safari' round 4 beginner's apiaries - so that they could see what Oxalic trickling involved under supervision.
The day was bright and clear, and not breezy, if a fraction warmer (+8C) than I'd have liked. The extra warmth (particularly for those in full sun or in poly) meant that the bees were a touch more mobile than if it had been a bit 'crisper' - but nevertheless, everyone saw that gently removing the coverboard (no big snaps) trickling in warm (20/25C would be ideal) Oxalic syrup and progressively covering the hive as each seam was treated (extra hands are helpful) really did NOT greatly disturb the bees.

For Oxalic vaporising, the required "mask and goggles" is actually a gas mask - not the sort of mask and goggles that one might wear for home redecoration (even for a Health & Safety obsessive). To be any use against Oxalic vapour, it needs to be gas-tight-sealed round the edges and with an appropriate filter cartridge on the breather.
To the best of my knowledge, the one-shot disposable filter cartridges (never mind the capital cost of the gas mask) are over a tenner.

The capital cost of the vaporiser plus personal protection kit becomes small beer if amortised over a few hundred hives and a dozen years or more.
But I think its a daft place to spend your money if you have only a couple of hives.
Better to buy another few hives for the same money.
Or go for a motorised, rather than a manual, honey extractor.
Or some nuc boxes and some Apideas. And upgrade to rigid-wire QXs and see-through polycarbonate coverboards.
There are better uses of the money!

Trickling isn't particularly disruptive.
Its damn nigh equal to sublimation on varroa (and not bee) killing. (You'd have to cull all the brood, ensuring exposing the sheltering varroa, to ensure better results with sublimation.) And that frames-out inspection itself would be way more disruptive than even botched trickling.
And for a handful of hives, trickling is pathetically cheap.

OK, it takes slightly longer to do the treatment (but its your hobby and you aren't worried about the total man hours saved across 250 hives) and it helps to have another pair of hands around - but y'know, it can be a sociable hobby!

To my mind, trickling is the appropriate way to go, at least for the first few years, and the first few hives.

Thorne's "Trickle2" (readymix in a dispenser bottle) is the ideal way to start. Just £3 for 2 hives-worth. Save the bottles and refill them with your own mix in future years.

There are better (more useful) things for the small-scae hobby beekeeper to spend the money on than Oxalic vaporising kit. Really!
But, its your money, and you can spend it however you like.
Let me just urge you, if you insist on vaporising, PLEASE do not try to save money (or trim the cost) by skimping on personal protection kit.

Many thanks for taking the time to put together this reply. I will take your advice on board and for this year I shall apply some Trickle2 and see how it goes

I do not want any more than 2 hives, I like the personal touch of a manual extractor, I have already up-graded to wire queen excluders. I have also had a double glazing company make up a double glazed window with A rated glass and an inert gas between the panes, to the exact size of a crown board and use that in place of a polycarbonate one. I am hoping that it will work as well as most thermo barriers but with the advantage of being completely see-through.
Love spending money on toys for my hobby so happy to have other pointers if you think of them!

pargyle · Jan 14, 2014

Arfermo said:
Try being more realistic in your contributions regarding issues you have a bias against please. It just ain't constructive.

No bias ... I'm in favour of live and let live in terms of anyone's beekeeping .... including treating with OA if you feel it is necessary.

However, most posts on this thread appear to favour the 'do it safely route' as far as sublimating with OA is concerned. I can't find anywhere on the internet where is says it is safe to expose yourself to OA fumes. Perhaps you could direct us towards the source of your advice ?

You are a little out of step it would seem....

Hivemaker. · Jan 15, 2014

Arfermo said:
Unadulterated scaremongering yet again!!! There is a wealth of other stuff online that puts the safety issues in perspective on a thoroughly researched scientific basis by appropriately qualified people much better than anything in this article. Try being more realistic in your contributions regarding issues you have a bias against please. It just ain't constructive.

... http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27123

Hivemaker. · Jan 15, 2014

Honey bee treatment 'applied in wrong way'
Honey bee populations are being allowed to collapse because current treatments are being applied to hives in the wrong way, experts claim.

But a current treatment could kill up to 98 per cent of varroa mites in a hive without harming any of the bees inside if it is used correctly, and would offer a cheap and simple solution to the problem, experts claim.

Although oxalic acid is known to be deadly to the mite, it is often applied in quantities which are too low to be effective, or so high that it harms the bees as well as the parasite.

Now researchers have found that when applied as a vapour rather than a solution, and at a particular dosage, the treatment can remove virtually all traces of varroa from hives without any harmful outcomes for bees.

Results from the trials have not been officially published, but Prof Francis Ratnieks told the Telegraph that in the most effective format – a vapour at a particular concentration – the treatment was 97 to 98 per cent effective.

He said: “What we have found is that different methods do have different effects on the mites and the bees, but the best method does not harm the bees and is deadly to the mites.

“You would only have to use it once a year because if you knocked the mites down to a small proportion then they would take a long time to build back up again. It is very cheap, effective and easy to use.”

Vapourising Oxalic Acid

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