Why is the National Beehive popular in the UK?

alanf said:

There was a previous thread that discussed why it was "modified". The older Simplex, or Simplicity models which became "National" with Min of Ag sponsorship had double walls at the hand hold ends. "Modified" replaced the double wall with rebated rails, which used less wood. That's how I recall it, I think there was even a double walled box or two that emerged from the back of sheds somewhere.

I don't know when the first hive was sold as a "National" but they were said to have arrived locally in 1938.

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oliver90owner said:

A discussion of why they chose bottom bee space over the more common top bee space might be pertinent, as that may have been part of it, even.

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The metal end method of spacing frames is in my opinion one of the most objectionable features of the British equipment. Combs so spaced, since these spacers contact only at the level of the top-bars, can swing when travelling, unless held down tightly on the rabbets which support them. This, in turn, makes it usual for the bee-space between the frames of the different stories to be allowed below the frames, so that the top-bars shall be flush with the hive walls. Then the bottoms of the super walls rest on the ends of the frames and hold them securely in place, but when we wish to lift a super, the lower edges of the super walls are stuck to the top-bars of the brood frames, and the latter are liable to be raised with the super.

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oliver90owner said:

Ahh, yes, double walled! They knew something about insulation back then? Forgotten since?
The last time our town was cut off by snow was thirty years ago, and occurred quite regularly before that (local quarry machines used to be sent out to clear the roads in those days). Many would not remember 1963 (I do) and very few 1947 (before me). Apparently high colony losses occurred in 1963 - possibly the cold actually killed the bees, or perhaps the duration caught out a lot of keepers, who knows? There would still have been a lot of double skinned hives in use back then. Just a bit of food for thought.... Maybe these cycles are connected to changes in attitude towards insulation, and single or double-walled hives, just maybe....

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rolande said:

There's one explanation {for standardising on bottom bee space}, in Manley's 'Honey Farming' as to why bottom space was chosen (talking of the older semi-double walled version of the hive of course):

… Then the bottoms of the super walls rest on the ends of the frames and hold them securely in place, but when we wish to lift a super, the lower edges of the super walls are stuck to the top-bars of the brood frames, and the latter are liable to be raised with the super.

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Hivemaker. said:

Here is a bit of beehive/frame history.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hist.html

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oliver90owner said:

Ahh, yes, double walled! They knew something about insulation back then? Forgotten since?

Yes, there is likely a reason and here is a related item, which may interest some. Early vintage cars were originally drained of coolant, if left outside overnight during the winter. It was not long before antifreeze was adopted by most - methanol based ones which evaporated quite quickly, mostly. However as the 1920s passed by, and into the 1930s, the winters becames so mild that it was thought that antifreeze requirement would soon be a thing of the past, at least in southern Britain. How wrong they were!

But maybe this period saw the change from better insulated to lesser insulated and it stuck? Bees survived adequately with only top insulation (quilts), often ofvlayers of old carpet, newspapers, etc.

Just guessing, but thinking back over the last 40 years, the following might be 'thought for food'. The last annual skating races held at Baston Fen in Lincs took place around 40 years ago - the ice has not been thick enough since and not much ice skating has taken place at all, until a couple or three years ago. Last winter, antifreeze in cars was hardly needed at all in large swathes of the UK. Only a couple of decent frosts and no real prolonged drops to sub-zero. OK, the previous couple had several periods of freezing temps (triggering extra heating payments for the elderly, infirm and poorer sections of the community), but they were odd-ball seasons if compared with the last twenty years.

The last time our town was cut off by snow was thirty years ago, and occurred quite regularly before that (local quarry machines used to be sent out to clear the roads in those days). Many would not remember 1963 (I do) and very few 1947 (before me). Apparently high colony losses occurred in 1963 - possibly the cold actually killed the bees, or perhaps the duration caught out a lot of keepers, who knows? There would still have been a lot of double skinned hives in use back then. Just a bit of food for thought.... Maybe these cycles are connected to changes in attitude towards insulation, and single or double-walled hives, just maybe....

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itma said:

Manley's boxes clearly had no beespace let into the bottom of the side walls to give clearance above the frame lugs in the box below.

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rolande said:

There's one explanation, in Manley's 'Honey Farming' as to why bottom space was chosen (talking of the older semi-double walled version of the hive of course):

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rolande said:

He was referring to the bottom bee-space national type boxes of the day. His own …

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itma said:

- and I was noting that to get (as Manley mentioned) propolisation of super box to brood frame, that implies no QX intervening.

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"Queen excluders are, in my opinion, an absolute necessity for practical bee farming, and one should be provided for every stock worked for honey. This has been disputed by some beekeepers; but I could not work without these appliances myself, and I cannot imagine how it could be done with any satisfactory method of management"

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itma said:

My point was that those "bottom bee space" national-standard boxes ("of the day"), which he was referring to, lacked beespace in a specific place that some (but not all) modern "national" designs also lack beespace.

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itma said:

// ADDED - and I was noting that to get (as Manley mentioned) propolisation of super box to brood frame, that implies no QX intervening.

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derekm said:

Severe winters in north Wales in late 70s - had to walk 4 miles to get to lectures, the girl friends car was under deep snow and even the purple motors buses had stopped. - great ice climbing though.
Severe winters in Scotland in early 80s -17C for a couple of weeks. Pipes froze in the road & we had no water! Lake Strathclyde had frozen and was skateable

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Little John said:

As a kid I didn't play Wars of the Roses, or Knights of the Round Table - but Cowboys and Indians

With a name like yours I would have thought Robin Hood would be your favourite.

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James Templer said:

Four foot eight inches, The Roman chariot bequeathed to all the standard railway gauge, and so follows the National beehive dimension.
As for Langstroth's awkward size, was it not modeled on a beer crate, he had knocking about, or was that Dadant? Then there was the Buckfast hive, I presume modeled on a fortified wine box!
Merry Christmas
James

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johnandyrob said:

QUOTE=Little John;453435
As a kid I didn't play Wars of the Roses, or Knights of the Round Table - but Cowboys and Indians

With a name like yours I would have thought Robin Hood would be your favourite.

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Amari said:

That would squeak and rattle horribly. 4' 8 1/2" now pertains.

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