Polystyrene sheet under aluminium rooves

Dusty Rhodes said:

Would raising the crownboard with something like matchsticks do the trick then?

What a great idea!


Thanks for your interest, williamtyrone!


Dusty

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That's another level you have to climb before leaving purgatory Dusty - shame on you!

Writing Sunday's sermon can't be going well.

oliver90owner said:

But, of course, there are slight differences of air density between dry and water-laden air which will further complicate the gaseous movements,

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Oh yeah ... "slight differences". Look out of your window at the clouds - millions of tons of water just hanging there in the sky.

I wonder who put them there ...

LJ

pargyle said:

No it won't - the more insulation you have the better chance your bees have of maintaining the hive temperature they want ... Why do you think so many people are turning to poly hives and those with timber ones are putting kingspan on top of the crown board ? There's only a few dissenters who still insist that cold bees become 'hard' bees and put matchsticks under the CB... Lots of threads in here .. Just think about it ... Insulating your house loft does not cause condensation.....

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I insulate above the CB but vent the roof ( like modern houses with roof vents in the tiles ) but would add that your few dissenters ,who still follow wedmores 1947 even though now on OMFs are in the majorty in a lot of Associations.

If you take the BBKA General Husbandry Assement with insulation on your hives in summer or imply you use insulation in winter then you will find that most GHA assessors and the Moderator are matchstick men and you will have to justfy your insulation (John Hendrie was not very helpful when i asked aquestion on it at a GHA support lecture)

MuswellMetro said:

but would add that your few dissenters ,who still follow wedmores 1947 even though now on OMFs are in the majorty in a lot of Associations.

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I noticed when I took my niece into the neighbouring BKA's bee tent at the smallholders show as a 'tourist' that they referred to the porter bee escape holes in the CB as 'ventilation holes'. Also, according to Redwood our local SBI will remove the hole coverings on your crownboard if he sees them covered (can't with mine since there's no holes!)
I can assure you if the subject is raised in our apiary they are told in no uncertain terms that the only time holes are allowed is when covered by a feeder or serving a rhombus bee escape.

MuswellMetro said:

I insulate above the CB but vent the roof ( like modern houses with roof vents in the tiles ) but would add that your few dissenters ,who still follow wedmores 1947 even though now on OMFs are in the majorty in a lot of Associations.

If you take the BBKA General Husbandry Assement with insulation on your hives in summer or imply you use insulation in winter then you will find that most GHA assessors and the Moderator are matchstick men and you will have to justfy your insulation (John Hendrie was not very helpful when i asked aquestion on it at a GHA support lecture)

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We had better not bother with the GHA then for few decades. As the hives, insulation and varoosis control would not meet their expections

derekm said:

We had better not bother with the GHA then for few decades. As the hives, insulation and varoosis control would not meet their expections

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yes, but if i take the General Husbandry Assement then insulation ,might not be the only reason why i fail LOL

Dusty Rhodes said:

williamtyrone said:

So either make an airtight seal at the insulation level or else provide some ventilation to disapate the warm air once it escapes to the roof void.

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Would raising the crownboard with something like matchsticks do the trick then?

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In fairness, Dusty, I think he's singing from the same hymn sheet as most of us, and I think it was good of him to come onto the forum to say so.

I read what he says as that ... if the insulation is a good fit, and thick enough, there will be no warm air hitting a cold surface so there will be no condensation. But if the insulation isn't good enough, and not close-fitting enough, then then the area above the insulation might need some ventilation because that's where any escaping warm air will hit a cold metal roof. A couple of thin strips of wood on the upper surface of the insulation would probably fit the bill.

I'm guessing WBCs will still need their vents.

MuswellMetro said:

If you take the BBKA General Husbandry Assessment with insulation on your hives in summer or imply you use insulation in winter then you will find that most GHA assessors and the Moderator are matchstick men and you will have to justify your insulation (John Hendrie was not very helpful when i asked question on it at a GHA support lecture)

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Much of the required reading for modules etc is set a long way in the past, and most of those books contain stuff regurgitated from even older books. Some things might not change much, but other things have changed a lot in recent years. I'm not sure BBKA assessors would award a pass to a beekeeper who doesn't use a standard hive design, for example a Top Bar Hive, and probably only because they don't understand how they 'work'.

I can't fully understand why beekeepers are still being told to raise each corner of the crownboard, and cut extra holes at each corner, to make sure there is a strong airflow through the brood box during the coldest months of the year when we're all being advised to keep our homes well insulated, and draught free, to save energy - and all we have to do is turn on the heating or light a fire. Bees have to generate their own heat, and use their precious stores to do so.

I can't agree with MuswellMetro. A lot of misinformation is written on this forum by certain people (who seem to have an anti-BBKA agenda) about the BBKA exam system . Most GH assessors are not matchstick men/women (I am not and most of the rest are not) and I would say that the majority are quite knowledgeable about non standard hives as several assessors have them or have tried them out in the recent past. If a candidate can justify their nonconventional approach then that is fine if it can be shown to be effective/workable in terms of disease control, queen rearing and swarm control. Also the recommended book list for the modules etc is reviewed every year.

BeeJoyful said:

I read what he says as that ... if the insulation is a good fit, and thick enough, there will be no warm air hitting a cold surface so there will be no condensation. But if the insulation isn't good enough, and not close-fitting enough, then then the area above the insulation might need some ventilation because that's where any escaping warm air will hit a cold metal roof. A couple of thin strips of wood on the upper surface of the insulation would probably fit the bill.

.

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But if you rip out those battens around the inside of the roof the insulation will be in full contact with the roof thus no gap, thus no vents or thin strips of wood needed.

masterBK said:

I can't agree with MuswellMetro. A lot of misinformation is written on this forum by certain people (who seem to have an anti-BBKA agenda) about the BBKA exam system . Most GH assessors are not matchstick men/women (I am not and most of the rest are not) and I would say that the majority are quite knowledgeable about non standard hives as several assessors have them or have tried them out in the recent past. If a candidate can justify their nonconventional approach then that is fine if it can be shown to be effective/workable in terms of disease control, queen rearing and swarm control. Also the recommended book list for the modules etc is reviewed every year.

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MBk, my only experience of GHA assessors is I admit at a recent BBKA afternoon workshop were both poly hives and insulation was raised in the Q&A session, both instantly dismissed by both assessors as not natural and that they create weak honeybee lineage

That's is all I can base my views on, hopefully i was just unlucky or time constraints meant short answers in the Q&A session , I am far from dismissive of alternative methods and understand the need to know alternative ways of keeping bees, if i am to help anyone who hold alternative views ,

I intend to take the GHA in 2015 or 2016 and my County is arranging a full weekend workshop and two day practical under the £35 subisdised BBKA scheme, so hopefully i will be pleasantly suprised

MuswellMetro said:

I intend to take the GHA in 2015 or 2016 and my County is arranging a full weekend workshop and two day practical under the £35 subisdised BBKA scheme, so hopefully i will be pleasantly suprised

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Wouldn't bank on it ... I got a real going over from from an alleged bee 'inspector' at an event at RHS Wisley last year, in discussion I happened to mention my insulated hive and that I was sealing it at the top for winter .. told me I was danger to beekeeping, my bees needed to be cold with top ventilation so that they clustered and that the way I was going at best my bees would be riddled with Nosema and at worst they would be dead by Spring.... I wasn't sufficiently confident to deal with him then but one day I'll meet him again ...

masterBK said:

I can't agree with MuswellMetro. A lot of misinformation is written on this forum by certain people (who seem to have an anti-BBKA agenda) about the BBKA exam system . Most GH assessors are not matchstick men/women (I am not and most of the rest are not) and I would say that the majority are quite knowledgeable about non standard hives as several assessors have them or have tried them out in the recent past. If a candidate can justify their nonconventional approach then that is fine if it can be shown to be effective/workable in terms of disease control, queen rearing and swarm control. Also the recommended book list for the modules etc is reviewed every year.

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Having presented my stuff to a fair number of beeks I can tell you there are a quite a number of matchstick men out there.
What is pleasantly surprising is how many are open to a detailed presented argument, However it does require one to have prepared for all manner of questions, So it comes as no surprise that the assessors have a far number of matchstick men amongst them,

Derek

Seems to me that this 'GHA' assessment is part of the 'has been' generation of beeks that would never accept there is a better way. Just about sums up the worth of the qualification. If there is such a thing. Ina. Word of two syllables, worth-less!

RAB

Just a quick question here. How many roofs are there out there that are made only of aluminium? Mine are all covered in aluminium, but that is simply the cladding to repel rain ingress, so only a small part of the structure. Under is plywood, and under that is polystyrene; around is a timber frame. Seems to work perfickly well with ventilation (solid crown boards under). Don't really see any problem, really. Just an OP that doesn't think for themselves perhaps!

oliver90owner said:

Seems to me that this 'GHA' assessment is part of the 'has been' generation of beeks that would never accept there is a better way. Just about sums up the worth of the qualification. If there is such a thing. Ina. Word of two syllables, worth-less!

RAB

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Meanwhile, back to the original question ...

I’ve just read this thread from start to finish and I’m wondering whether the original question has been answered. I’m sure Beeno can speak for himself but on rereading the original post (of course, op! – I often wondered what that meant) Beeno seems to be asking about condensation forming between the, say, the plywood structural roof and the aluminium sheet used to make it waterproof.

Every aluminium roof covering I’ve made ends up with minor undulations and “dings” resulting in air gaps of up to 1 or 2 mm. Even with a generous amount of insulation above the crown board and below the roof, I suppose it is possible for moist air from the outside atmosphere to invade this small space and moisture could condense on the underside of the aluminium. I suspect that this condensation would be minimal and not sufficient to cause problems with exterior grade plywood. It could however be avoided if a bead of some sort of mastic were to be placed around the perimeter of the roof so that damp atmospheric air could not enter any space between the aluminium and the plywood. A thin sheet of upholsterer’s foam or polystyrene squashed between the plywood and aluminium would do the job of stopping damp air getting between the two materials. For myself, I don’t think I’ll bother with either option!

CVB

oliver90owner said:

Just a quick question here. How many roofs are there out there that are made only of aluminium?

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These Swienty Langstroth ones are http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp?side=0&vareid=100021A well, galvanised rather than aluminium. I use them and so do a few people I know. In case the link doesn't work, there is a slab of polystyrene directly above the crownboard, and directly beneath the metal roof. There is no wooden lining to the roof.

Swienty also do roofs (they call them hive covers) that are just polystyrene, with no outer metal cover. http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp?side=0&vareid=100021 They're slightly thicker than the slab that goes within the galvanised metal cover. These are the ones Paynes sell, they're slightly cheaper than the metal/polystyrene combination roof.

Stack-able, light, durable, completely waterproof and cheap, if only they made them a little smaller this would be the dogs danglies in roofs when coupled with a slab of poly IMHO.

https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/square-garden-tray

Are we not, confusing condensation and humidity????

I said "Closing the vents with insulation on the inside WILL cause damp"