what would you do

no, they'll sort themselves out - with the unites, probably a case of paper too thick for them or not enough holes, so you did the right thing - hopefully they'll sort themselves out in a few days.

I have finally united the hives. The bees have removed most of the paper but I gave them a helping hand with the rest seeing as they were ignoring the rest. Hive 2 is doing great thou it did have few dead bees above the QE. Hive no4 is not as fast growing as no2 but still has eggs,brood, stores etc... Thou it did seem to have quite a lot of dead bees above QE, maybe 60 and nearly all where drones. In both hives I've gave them the rest of drawn frames/ stores that where in the top boxes.

In the caste, I've gave frames with half drawn and one with stores, queen was wandering about with nowhere to lay but what I did notice is that there's cells with 2 and upwards of 5 eggs! This has me worried. I remember reading that a queen can sometimes lay 2 eggs in a cell but 5 has me worried. This hive isn't growing as fast either and want to know is there anything I can do to help it. I'm near sure I have laying worker bees but there's a queen in there so I'm baffled

As long as they've broken through the paper properly the unite is complete and you can just remove the rest yourself, so that's okay.
You'll always find a few dead bees above the QX after a unite - probably can't be bothered to take them down below - drones won't fit through the QX so that's the reason for those.
So well done, give them a little peace for a couple of weeks to build up then start preparing for winter, varroa treatment etc.

As for the cast - could be a newly mated queen just 'clearing her throat, especially if she didn't have much laying space, any capped brood in there/ if so, was it worker? I would leave them to their own devices for a week or so and check to see if she's sorted herself out. As I said earlier - don't waste too much energy on the cast, concentrate on your two main hives.

jenkinsbrynmair said:

As long as they've broken through the paper properly the unite is complete and you can just remove the rest yourself, so that's okay.
You'll always find a few dead bees above the QX after a unite - probably can't be bothered to take them down below - drones won't fit through the QX so that's the reason for those.
So well done, give them a little peace for a couple of weeks to build up then start preparing for winter, varroa treatment etc.

As for the cast - could be a newly mated queen just 'clearing her throat, especially if she didn't have much laying space, any capped brood in there/ if so, was it worker? I would leave them to their own devices for a week or so and check to see if she's sorted herself out. As I said earlier - don't waste too much energy on the cast, concentrate on your two main hives.

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I thought I'd run this by ya, I was chatting to another beekeeper today and I was telling him about my problems and he suggested I take the super off no2, reasons being is that its coming to the end of the honey flow here on the west coast of Ireland and I'd want the bees to concentrate on filling out that brood box for the remaining few weeks. He also suggests feeding the 2 brood boxes.

As for the caste, he recommends getting a poly hive for it seeing as it's really small if I want to overwinter it but can't see it making it through winter, if it does that's a bonus. He's told me to give them the drawn frames that where in the nuc the wasps robbed. I mentioned the wasp sent on them but he knows nothing about wasps but its worth the chance because the frames are near ready for laying in. What do you think

jenkinsbrynmair said:

So well done, give them a little peace for a couple of weeks to build up then start preparing for winter, varroa treatment etc.

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Yes, well done

Stick with the JBM plan ... stop listening to other people and changing tack. The caste is probably not viable ... if you want to help them with insulation then rather than spending £100 on a polyhive just make a hive 'bonnet' out of Kingspan insulation as per DerekM :

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25354&page=6 Post #53

The rest of the thread is a pretty good read as long as you ignore Afermo's entreaty to freeze your bees to make them 'hard'. Absolute B...cks.

To be fair P I just thought I'd run it past jbms first to hear his thoughts on it. Its just seeing as I'm in the west of Ireland and jbm is in UK where your seasons are longer, maybe this other beekeepers suggestion isn't to bad at all. There's beekeepers here already finished with honey and are now feeding and treating for the winter. If I've to leave them I will but feeding might just help them that bit more. As for the caste, I know I'll more or less lose it but it's worth trying to save. A poly brood box/roof is only about 40 euro and if it saves this caste, I'll pay it, if not ill have the poly for next year. I spent more on rounds of drink at wknd so don't more mind spending it for something that will get use rather than pissing it against a wall.

there is nothing wrong with thinking about taking the supers off - but if you do, make sure there are stores in the brood box.
I wouldn't interfere with the two full hives at all for two weeks - they've been b*ggered around enough lately. leave well alone for now then take off the supers in two weeks or so, you really need to give them peace to consolidate themselves.
Decide on your varroa treatment approach then feed.
As for the cast - he's right, he knows nothing about wasps, and not that much about bees it seems.
Putting that small colony in a large hive whether poly or not with the aded bonus of a wasp attractant could well scupper what little chance they had.A nuc's the place for them - put a little feed of 1:1 on and monitor, but as I said in my last post, you may not have a viable queen. did you see worker brood last time you inspected? anyway, leave them well alone for another week then check to see if there's a regular laying pattern and more importantly whether there is capped worker brood otherwise we shall just be shaking the lot out and leaving them fend for themselves.
As per Pargyle - use up some of that celotex you have kicking around and make yourself a cozy to put over the nuc for insulation.
Let's just stick to plan a shall we - otheerwise even i will get confused

I think he is referring to a Paynes Poly Nuc for the cast - a couple of local suppliers are selling them for around the 40 Euro mark. Even if the cast does not make it through the Winter, a poly nuc would be a worthwhile investment for the future but I agree with Pargyle and JBM that you should leave the cast for now - it would be a big disturbance to move them into another box now and if the cast is as small as I think it is, they could do with being left undisturbed bar a wee feed.
As per JBM's comments - if the supers are left on Irishguy's hives, they will have access to food reserves but if the supers are on, it effectively limits the range of varroa treatments.
The last of my supers will be off this weekend and as they come off, all stocks are getting a feed of thymolated 2:1 and I'll be starting varroa treatment in the middle of next week. I have been seeing a high varroa load in a number of my hives but thankfully, little or no sign of DWV. Given the way the season is moving on here (and I am much further East than IrishGuy) I have a nagging feeling that I should have started varroa treatment a week or two ago... I suspect that many local beekeepers are blissfully unaware of the extent of varroa infestation in their colonies at present. It will be interesting to see how local colonies build up in 2015.

Wow - what a thread this is! I thought I had problems with my one hive!!

The advice that has been given to IG by jenkinsbrynmair is fantastic and clear.

It is so hard as a beginner when you are offered lots of different advice. I would definetly advise sticking with one plan and seeing how it works out. At the end of the day the bees know best and we need to support them with their plan.

VixyB said:

Wow - what a thread this is! I thought I had problems with my one hive!!

The advice that has been given to IG by jenkinsbrynmair is fantastic and clear.

It is so hard as a beginner when you are offered lots of different advice. I would definetly advise sticking with one plan and seeing how it works out. At the end of the day the bees know best and we need to support them with their plan.

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Yes ... it's been an interesting thread ... what we should all learn is that it's usually what the beekeeper does to the bees that causes the most problems - not what the bees do themselves ... they usually have a good plan which gets messed up when we interfere with it !

JBM has just been getting these hives back into the state where the bees can manage THEIR preparation for winter. They, hopefully, now will survive - in spite of the beekeeper - not because of him !

Next step is I'm going to make 3 Millar feeders for winter feeding and start moving the hives bit by bit closer to each other so I can screen them off with a wind break over winter. I was thinking of sticking a few posts in the ground and get some green garden cloth and fence round the sides and front. I'm also going to make up 3 hive covers with my insulation and duct tape all around the edges or maybe use aluminum tape and hopefully this will just give them that bit extra help in winter.

irishguy said:

Next step is I'm going to start moving the hives bit by bit closer to each other so I can screen them off with a wind break over winter.

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Why? it looks a nice sheltered spot with the hedge behind and the hives are nicely spaced, I know the hives are a bit spread out now due to the unites, move one at a time if you have to, to spare confusion. I think the insulation bit would be of more benefit this winter though with what they've been through

I said nothing in this thread, JBM said it all. Bravo JBM. Patience and experience showed through a treat.
E

jenkinsbrynmair said:

Why? it looks a nice sheltered spot with the hedge behind and the hives are nicely spaced, I know the hives are a bit spread out now due to the unites, move one at a time if you have to, to spare confusion. I think the insulation bit would be of more benefit this winter though with what they've been through

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I'm thinking best to have the 3 close beside each other(still 3ft away thou) because when I do make the wind brake, its not spread out more. I know its well sheltered from behind but would putting a wind brake at sides and front not give it that bit more help through the winter. On the west coast here we get quite a lot of wind coming off that Atlantic . It ain't going to cost me anything because I already have them lying about the shed. I can't think of a reason not to do it

Remember, also, that westerly winds tend not to be so cold as we get, in mainland UK, from the continental easterly winds. Chill factor depends on several variables.

Did an inspecton at 5 o'clock. Been busy so haven't been on here much to tell what's going on thou I haven't touched the hives since few weeks ago.

First up I inspected the caste, spoted queen straight away walking all over the bees. There's more bees but still wouldn't be confident of them making It through the winter. There's bees on 2 (maybe 3) frames and the queen is still laying 2 eggs in some cells. When I say on 2/3 frames, all frames wouldn't be full of bees thou. There's about a handful of brood on both sides of frame. I fed with 2:1 sugar syrup. Will I add the frames that came out of the nuc box the wasps robbed. The reason why I'm thinking this is that it'll give the Queen more room to lay. I know there might be wasp sent on it(maybe not, who knows) but isn't it worth the risk if it mightn't make it through the winter anyway. Its a bit of a catch 22 IMO, maybe someone can advise me on this.

Next up was hive2 with the super. Its teaming with bees, lots of brood,eggs,larvae but bit shy on stores. It has the super on top and was chatting to one of the head guys in association last night and he suggested I feed them and take of the super. What else he suggested is that I put the crown board on top of brood, with 2 holes and put feeder over 1 hole and queen excluder on top of this empty super with the feeder in it and next put the super on top of this. The bees will go down to brood box and concentrate on the feeder and leave the super frames alone.

Next up was hive 4. This is also doing good but isn't as big as hive2. There's brood,eggs,larvae on about 5 frames and stores where low. I fed this with 2:1 sugar syrup like the others.

I'm going to keep feeding until hives are full then time for treatment. One thing I did notice (or didn't) was that I couldn't see any voroa mite. I looked for a good while and I couldn't spot 1 mite in any hive. I'm thinking will I get away with not treating seeing as I didn't spot any. I'm going by what I seen in the association aipray few months back where I was able to see the voroa in these hives. I'm going to do the sugar test just to see if my hives have it.

What's your thoughts J

JBM will be along shortly

irishguy said:

First up I inspected the caste, spoted queen straight away walking all over the bees. There's more bees but still wouldn't be confident of them making It through the winter. There's bees on 2 (maybe 3) frames and the queen is still laying 2 eggs in some cells. When I say on 2/3 frames, all frames wouldn't be full of bees thou. There's about a handful of brood on both sides of frame. I fed with 2:1 sugar syrup. J

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Well, they're shaping up a bit - is the brood all worker brood?

irishguy said:

Will I add the frames that came out of the nuc box the wasps robbed.

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No! you've just said there's only a handful of brood on both sides of one frame, she doesn't need any more space - they need hunkering down as much as possible

irishguy said:

.Next up was hive2 with the super. Its teaming with bees, lots of brood,eggs,larvae but bit shy on stores. It has the super on top J

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What's in the super? if it's empty just take it off, if it's full or even half full that's stores, they'll take it when they need it

irishguy said:

It has the super on top and was chatting to one of the head guys in association last night and he suggested I feed them and take of the super.

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Okay, so far so good (as long as the super is empty thus not needed - superfluous you could say!)

irishguy said:

What else he suggested is that I put the crown board on top of brood, with 2 holes and put feeder over 1 hole and queen excluder on top of this empty super with the feeder in it and next put the super on top of this. The bees will go down to brood box and concentrate on the feeder and leave the super frames alone.

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Hmm - it's listening to daft ideas like that that's got you into this mess in the first place - ignore it.

irishguy said:

Next up was hive 4. This is also doing good but isn't as big as hive2. There's brood,eggs,larvae on about 5 frames and stores where low. I fed this with 2:1 sugar syrup like the others.

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5 Frames is good this is doing fine - no need for any more fiddling.

irishguy said:

I'm going to keep feeding until hives are full then time for treatment. One thing I did notice (or didn't) was that I couldn't see any voroa mite.

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I'd treat right now - don't bother with treating the cast; it's so weak it will do more harm than good. Just because you can't see the mites don't mean they're not there. Treat now, then feed some more and they have every chance in the world to see spring.

jenkinsbrynmair said:

Well, they're shaping up a bit - is the brood all worker brood?

Yes all worker brood.



No! you've just said there's only a handful of brood on both sides of one frame, she doesn't need any more space - they need hunkering down as much as possible


OK, won't open up hive again for 2 weeks to see if it needs more feed. Will this be ok

Super not empty, maybe over half full.

What's in the super? if it's empty just take it off, if it's full or even half full that's stores, they'll take it when they need it

I was thinking maybe I could take this and feed. That was the plan anyway but if I've to leave it, I will.

Okay, so far so good (as long as the super is empty thus not needed - superfluous you could say!)



Hmm - it's listening to daft ideas like that that's got you into this mess in the first place - ignore it.

The reason he suggested this is that I was telling him I was wanting to extract the honey, will be getting the extractor of him on wed/thru. This would have gave bees plenty time to go down the bottom and stay there. I see you say discard this but have you any suggestions about me being able to extract this.

5 Frames is good this is doing fine - no need for any more fiddling.

Ok, will only open roof to feed or treat.


I'd treat right now - don't bother with treating the cast; it's so weak it will do more harm than good. Just because you can't see the mites don't mean they're not there. Treat now, then feed some more and they have every chance in the world to see spring.

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Ok, will treat. I still don't have any in. A friend was suppos to bring some maq strips down last week but didn't get round to it. First thing in morning I'll source the maqs.