Which shallow frames for a national?

Happy new year all.

I'm being optimistic, assuming my colonies will make it through winter, and making preparations for a bumper crop of honey this year (Against zero last year )

So, to cope with this bumper crop, I need to buy plenty of shallow frames - but which to choose. I have 20 SN1's already made up, (That won't be enough for 4 hives!) but haven't actually extracted anything so far so can't go on my own preference.

What advice would you kind people give as to the 'best' type of frame, and why please?

If it helps decide, one of my colonies likes to propolise and brace comb EVERYTHING, but the other three are OK. I don't have castellated supers, or sufficient spacers.

Thanks.

If you don't have castellations or spacers then go for hoffmans. SN4S.
Manleys I find a pain as they just clump together and it's easier to crush bees when replacing.

Hoffmans get round your spacing issue, but when removing supers you need to have a full complement of frames if not in castellations, otherwise they can swivel and drop out.

Have a look here on dave cushmans site it gives u all the frame styles for the national and how they work with any issues you need to be aware of.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsframedesignations.html

I stupidly bought hoffmans which are the self spacing, never again, they are great in the brood box but a real pain when you want to extract honey because cutting the cappings off is a real nightmare.

i will now only use SN1 for the supers.

dpearce4 said:

Have a look here on dave cushmans site it gives u all the frame styles for the national and how they work with any issues you need to be aware of.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsframedesignations.html

I stupidly bought hoffmans which are the self spacing, never again, they are great in the brood box but a real pain when you want to extract honey because cutting the cappings off is a real nightmare.

i will now only use SN1 for the supers.

Click to expand...

SN1's and either buy more spacers or castellations

I would use SN1's with either spacers or castellations but will now buy Manley as they do not give me a problem with squashing bees or them being stuck together.

Castellations are cheap and quite easily fitted. If you want them.
I find 'slide-on' spacers an abomination. But presumably some think they are great or don't realise that there are better ways. Or both.



However, it is worth remembering that super frames don't get pulled out every week for inspections. You just lift the whole box out of the way.
So the frame type does not have the same requirements as brood frames.

SN1 in castellations is a very popular choice. Simple and cheap.

Manleys are designed the way they are to make for level comb and easy uncapping. Designed to be better super frames than SN1s! They can get prop'd together -- but that should be almost irrelevant, given how rarely they are going to be separated.
They should also be your first choice (when used with unwired foundation) for getting some nice cut comb honey.
Use Manleys on rails, ideally with a dummy board to bookend them.

Hoffmans (on rails and with a dummy board) are the appropriate choice for the half bit of brood and a half. Those are brood frames and need to be frequently inspected.
If you have mainly new kit, its well worth having a few shallow hoffmans. Pull out a stores frame from the brood box and put in a shallow hoffman in a place where it will be quickly drawn (next to the brood nest). Pull it out once the cell-drawing is well advanced (maybe only a couple of days) but before it gets used for brood. One or two such frames are VERY helpful in getting the bees to "go up" and start work in an otherwise entirely new super with new frames and otherwise undrawn foundation. Drawn comb is something new beekeepers need and don't have!


I run 14x12s. The brood frames use the wider style of top bar -- which gives a proper beespace between the bars (rather than the odd 1.5 beespaces of the more common narrower bars).
Manleys are what I'm buying more of. They use the same wider top bars. So I just have one type of top bar. And less 'stuff' to store separately.

/ OK, like just about everyone else, I do have a box or two of SN1s on castellations... but I doubt I'll be replacing them with more SN1s.

One quesion might be: Do you use a queen excluder at all times (in the summer season)?

Another might be :how much honey do you wish to collect per super?

Yet another, which is unlikely: cut comb or for extraction?

I used to buy the blue wide spacers (they last longer than the others), but they seem to have sussed that one, and space as required. I only use SN1 frames.

Th*rne seconds are as cheap as chips and do the job. Why pay more?

RAB

Can manleys be used with castellated spacers?

ultreen1 said:

Can manleys be used with castellated spacers?

Click to expand...

no, the castelation sapcing is not at the correct spacing for manley (self spacing), just invert the castelation and use as a runner

SN1 and 10 frame castellations work for me. Simple, cheap and don't move or sway every time you lift them.

ultreen1 said:

Can manleys be used with castellated spacers?

Click to expand...

yes, but they're self-spacing at 10 per national super IIRC.
Someone more experienced will be able to give advice on getting them drawn well from foundation. If not, search for historical posts by Poly Hive as he is a committed manley user, again IIRC.

Such as this one: http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15005&highlight=manley

lol

You pays your money...................

To me SN1 frames are mere museum piece and I burn them. Recently got rid of the very last of them. Fiddling about with spacers and the hassle of castellations? Never. *I* consider them obsolete, and to have been so for 70 years. The sales of certain bee appliance dealers especially of a Wragby locale tend to say otherwise. (But then their second best selling hive is a WBC!)

I have a vast number of Manleys, but if starting again they too would be only firewood.

Touched on by other posters is the main reason, though maybe approached from a different angle. Spacing.

Our 1980's trials showed quite definitively that the same spacing all the way up the hive, with the combs and spaces all lined up, gave more honey than any other configuration. More than Manley supers, more than wide spaced frames. We reckoned it was down to air circulation being more efficient when everything was lined up and thus ripening was quicker. Manleys, being spaced differently from the broodnest, do not offer that as the spacings over a large proportion on the box has the air flow through the space coming up against the bottom bars of the super frames. Only Hoffmans and correctly spaced simple frames allow this.

Never had any issues with uncapping Hoffmans either deep or shallow by whatever sytem we had in use at the time, all the way back to when it was the serrated 'Eye Witness' knives. (actually having a couple of these and a pan of hot water to keep them in was more efficient than hot knives)

If starting again thats what we would have, same spacing all the way. Unfortunately our Smith unit and Wooden Langstroth untis are not like that and we have a lot of historical Manley supers that I will not be changing due to the economics of doing so. But then again we would not re-invest in shallows anyway.

IF you are quite sure you will never want to move on and sell your gear then use whatever you wish, but if there is a chance of that happening then best to buy what most around you are using, then your hives will have the best resale value.

Happy New Year Murray

Just reading your post there as I was being told from everywhere over here to move to SN1 s as I have been running hoffmans in brood and super. Am I reading you right in your advice to stay Hoffman in both boxes?

Stephen

Into the lions den said:

lol

You pays your money...................

To me SN1 frames are mere museum piece and I burn them. Recently got rid of the very last of them. Fiddling about with spacers and the hassle of castellations? Never. *I* consider them obsolete, and to have been so for 70 years. The sales of certain bee appliance dealers especially of a Wragby locale tend to say otherwise. (But then their second best selling hive is a WBC!)

I have a vast number of Manleys, but if starting again they too would be only firewood.

Touched on by other posters is the main reason, though maybe approached from a different angle. Spacing.

Our 1980's trials showed quite definitively that the same spacing all the way up the hive, with the combs and spaces all lined up, gave more honey than any other configuration. More than Manley supers, more than wide spaced frames. We reckoned it was down to air circulation being more efficient when everything was lined up and thus ripening was quicker. Manleys, being spaced differently from the broodnest, do not offer that as the spacings over a large proportion on the box has the air flow through the space coming up against the bottom bars of the super frames. Only Hoffmans and correctly spaced simple frames allow this.

Never had any issues with uncapping Hoffmans either deep or shallow by whatever sytem we had in use at the time, all the way back to when it was the serrated 'Eye Witness' knives. (actually having a couple of these and a pan of hot water to keep them in was more efficient than hot knives)

If starting again thats what we would have, same spacing all the way. Unfortunately our Smith unit and Wooden Langstroth untis are not like that and we have a lot of historical Manley supers that I will not be changing due to the economics of doing so. But then again we would not re-invest in shallows anyway.

IF you are quite sure you will never want to move on and sell your gear then use whatever you wish, but if there is a chance of that happening then best to buy what most around you are using, then your hives will have the best resale value.

Click to expand...

Very interesting post, thanks ITLD. Was going to order Manley super frames instead of my usual Hoffmans - you have changed my mind.
Was also considering all plastic frame/foundation supers (not brood), but concerned that the bees may swarm rather than draw them out. What is your opinion?

I use Hoffman in my supers, don't know why, simpleness probably or was it Mr Cushman, works for me

Good question and I wish I'd asked it when starting out!

I use cheapest SN1 available and castellations instead of runners - which solves the spacing and propolising problem.

You can get castellations for 9,10 and 11 frame spacing, I'd suggest you start with !0 frames (which is wider spacing than Hoffmans). .

I use sn1 I use narrow pacers for new foundation in the supers. The second year I put the same frames back but use wide spacers, this time the bees draw more of the wax out to the new beespace so I get less frames in each super but more honey for less cappings. Actually I use wide spacers at all times but I overlap them with new foundation which turns them into narrow spacers! Does all this make sense? If not I can send photo's

beebopalula said:

Very interesting post, thanks ITLD. Was going to order Manley super frames instead of my usual Hoffmans - you have changed my mind.
Was also considering all plastic frame/foundation supers (not brood), but concerned that the bees may swarm rather than draw them out. What is your opinion?

Click to expand...

1. Right decision, but not because of anything I said............just that mixed equipment is a PITA.........once you have a system, unless it is very wrong for some reason, stay with it, its a lot less hassle.

2. I had thousands upon thousands of plastic full frames, and plastic foundation in wood in service. I was the UK sales agent for Pierco. Nowadays I am neither a user of plastic not sell Pierco (though I still have loads of it in stock). You are further south than us and may get more intense flows, but your worry is the main issue, for us at least. In many cases, especially with black bees ( VERY noticeable) they do not like the plastic as they do wood and wax, and in a super above an excluder, except in a powerful flow, they will swarm rather than draw it. It is GREAT once fully drawn, but getting there is the big issue. Carniolans generally draw it for fun. The issue in the brood frames is additionally complicated by the difficulty of sterilising it. If you ever want to put these things through a boiler or very high temp you have to be VERY careful what you buy. Even some of the so called temperature proof versions warp a bit, and once you get that your spacing is compromised and you end up with a real pigs ear.

Over 10,000 full frames, and just as many sheets of foundation, removed from service and sent to very expensive licensed disposal. Thats says it all.

blackcavebees said:

Happy New Year Murray

Just reading your post there as I was being told from everywhere over here to move to SN1 s as I have been running hoffmans in brood and super. Am I reading you right in your advice to stay Hoffman in both boxes?

Stephen

Click to expand...

Happy New Year to you too. My advice, as with the other response, is, if it aint broken dont fix it. Stick with what you have for sake of uniformity/interchangeability. In the event of wanting to go to wide spacing for some reason the plastic/metal ends still fit perfectly well.