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steve's bees

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north yorkshire
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Hi all, this is does any body know whether bees will draw comb out if the sheet of foundation were just flat without any comb pattern on it. Has anyone ever tried this or know of anyone that has.
Thanks Steve
 
I think that the consensus is that the bees are not keen on it. You would be better off with starter strips.

Saving wax and getting comb drawn that much easier than with a smooth flat sheet.
 
Norman Chapman in his book 'Constructive Beekeeping' discusses his making and use of smooth foundation. I can't see why the bees wouldn't use it.
 
Norman Chapman in his book 'Constructive Beekeeping' discusses his making and use of smooth foundation. I can't see why the bees wouldn't use it.

Because foundation is thicker than a natural midrib, I suspect they would have trouble moulding it.
 
try starter strips,its all i use on 15 hives,i have only had 1 collapse on me and
that happened while feeding,the frame was so heavy on newly drawn comb,
that it collapsed after being tilted by accident.it also saves a small fortune in
foundation but remember to keep the hive level,or the foundation wont be drawn straight with the frames
 
protheroe;205429it also saves a small fortune in foundation[/QUOTE said:
This is largely a myth.

OK, so you may need to double my figures for the price most of you will have to pay, but using starters is a complete false economy.

Just as an arbitrary figure, on say one box of shallow foundation, this, decent quality and wired. should cost no more than about 4 pounds, unwired maybe 2.90 (I pay well less)..........you take a quarter of that.............so pay say 70p for your starter strip foundation, saving lets say 2.20 on the foundation cost. But you still have to cut it, and fix it in place, which relative to fitting a full sheet is slower.

2.20? Thats less than the selling price of ONE piece of cut comb. I am not going to go digging out the old figures, but the reduction in harvest in our old tests, done carefully and extensively back in the 1980s, was about a third compared to full sheets. Only sections were worse. Its a real 'save a penny. throw away a pound' situation, that can only be defended on economic grounds if the beekeeper does not have the money to buy full sheet foundation.

I know all about the other arguments advanced from the 'natural' sector about the 'wrongs' of using foundation, but this not the subject of this thread.

Bees WILL draw a comb on a flat sheet. It may well not be a comb you will like however, and, without the geometric pattern of interlocking hexagons across the comb, most of the natural strength will be lost. OK, so it is a naturally derived system that works, but the pattern of cell imprints and the way each cell ineratc equally with three cells on the opposite face of the comb is very clever in terms of mathematics, geometry, and mechanics, which a flat sheet will be completely with out. You can even get bees to draw a comb of sorts on a sheet of chicken wire if you wish. (Yes, it has been done.)
 
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i get thirteen strips out of a single sheet,10 sheets equals 130 frames.
it is a lot quicker to put together than a full sheet,no fiddling about sliding it into the grooves,just tack frames together then pinch the strip with the same 3 tacks as in a full foundation.it takes a couple of minutes to cut the strips ,but thats neither here nor there.
 
Well yes... but if you read the ITLD post for every frame you are dressing like this you are losing a third of production. Sensible aye?

PH
 
ps. i was talking about brood frames only

Other than if the 'natural' group have persuaded you of the merits of their case I can see NO reason to do this for brood combs. Only cases I have seen of this, where a wild comb is drawn in a frame, either by the bees own initiative or from a strip at the top bar, have been very unsatisfactory, with far too much drone. Always with the proviso that the judgement is made from MY perspective. However, a lovely flat strong brood comb is a valuable asset and colony expansion and ease of management are enhanced by having good strong flat combs.

Beekeepers are well noted for being careful with their pennies. If starters and largely wild comb were actually superior, either for management or economically, then foundation would never have taken off. It did.

Brood comb foundation is best bought as thick as you can afford. Our current Lang deep foundation is 10 sheets to the kilo, and we are replacing stuff that was 18 sheets to the kilo. Makes better combs, quicker drawn, flat and strong. It is a similar price per kilo, so costing us a lot more. (54p against 32p) Yet it is a sound investment as the attrition rate is negligible and with the faster drawing rate it is almost as good as drawn comb in many situations.
 
We know they will draw comb without any starter strip at all, but nature didnt tell the bees to make it strong enough to compensate for when somebody wants to take it out of their hive and tilt it like the Leaning Tower. It has crossed my mind a few times that they might build comb onto a starter strip made of wire floor mesh......
Last year I took 2 frames from my observation hive but I was short of a full piece of foundation for one of the replcement frames, so had to use two bits and just overlapped them and pressed the join together..... It was quite interesting to watch then remove all the wax from the joined area making a big hole, and then rebuilding it to thier needs. Didnt take them very long either. They also chucked out a couple of short bits of wire they didnt want..
 
if i was running a commercial operation then i would move onto using foundation,but with 15 hives,probably expanding to 30 this year,starter strips
are fine, i have not had a single badly drawn out comb, which i find takes the same time to draw as foundation does,but i do have the time to check ,just in case there was a badly drawn comb,if i had hundreds of hives ,foundation would be a much better option
 
Going to be interesting when you want to extract some broods....

At 15+ units I am surprised you are going the way you are but best wishes.

PH
 
"Going to be interesting when you want to extract some broods...."

same concern if using pre-wired frames with the starter strips?
 
No experience of that but I wonder how they would stand up to heather agitation for instance pre extraction.

PH
 
what works great for some may not for others,its personal preference
 
Wax foundation for plastic foundation.

P1030736.JPG


Benefits of plastic

  • Better hygiene method as they can be steam cleaned or dipped in boiling water or left to soak in a sterilising solution.
  • Simple to scrap off the old comb and cleaned before dipping in clean molten wax and they are ready to be reused again.
  • The bees will draw it out just as well as normal wax foundation.
  • Never goes stale or brittle making it easy to fit in the frames.
  • Currently on sale for £2 a sheet so it will pay for itself the next time you would normally replace the old wax sheets (2-3 years).
  • Ideal for all honey types (but not cut comb ;)) Even crystallized honey can be removed with ease.
  • Heather honey can be scrapped off with ease.
  • Grafting with confidence as you can press down with the grafting tool to get under the grub and bed of jelly without punching a hole through the comb.
  • Inspect with confidence on a red hot day knowing the comb will not warp or sag when the frame is held horizontally by a novice bee keeper. :svengo:
  • Should easy last 10+ years or longer.
Plus plenty more I cant think of at the moment.

If you are in any doubt buy a sheet and try it out for yourself...
I used it in several hives last year and I am so impressed with it I am swapping out all my old wax foundation for plastic this year.
 
I tried it and the bees hated it.

It takes a powerful flow to get it drawn.

Not for me. If it works for you then fine but as I say, it failed for me.

PH
 

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